Pilot shortage at Brussels Airlines ?

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Avro
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Post by Avro »

fly wrote: at Brussels airlines is that all their experience is leaving ( not only pilots also technicians) and in aviation that is a ticking time bomb.
Oh boy, oh boy, and I'm flying brussels airlines next week. :shock: I hope their planes won't be falling apart and flown by junior pilots without experience ;-) Thank god the Avro is the only plane with 5 APU's so nothing can happen lol

Back on topic:

It seems indeed to be a huge problem for brussels airlines. If the problems are as described in this topic, they will have to react very quickly and with drastic manners if they want to stop the experienced people to resign !! There is no way the airline can survive if all the knowledged people are leaving..

Chris

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Post by Homo Aeroportus »

Avro wrote: Thank god the Avro is the only plane with 5 APU's so nothing can happen lol

Chris
:D
Good one.

Reminds me of CPH-BRU late Friday flight some 2-3 years ago.
Well into the flight the guys in the front office had to shut down engine N°2.
No big deal I thought at first but what I didn't know is that this apparently extra redundant plane (I mean by the number of engines...) cannot fly more than 45 minutes on 3 engines.

So we diverted to Hamburg as we were still ... 50 minutes away from BRU.

Luckily (for us) a company 146 landed and parked next to us minutes later.

Furthermore as our pilots were running long in their flight hours for the day, they hired the cab back to BRU with the incoming crew on duty.

Just imagine these guys back : "Honey I'm home !"
:D

So these guys are pro. If the book says so, then so we do.

They deserve a better management for sure.
:cry:

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Corto
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Post by Corto »

... Thank god the Avro is the only plane with 5 APU's so nothing can happen lol

Chris

WRONG!!! The plane with 5 APU's is the Scarebus A340-200/300. The Avro has one APU and 4 blow dryers!

:)
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pull-up
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Post by pull-up »

Hi

The problem of pilot shortage is not just happening in SN, I just heard that TNT had to cancel his order for 2 boeings 737 because they can't train enough pilot in time and have already their training working at 100% to compensate for the internal upgrades and new pilots.

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Corto
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Post by Corto »

After the little intermezzo, going back to topic.

I have been reading all the postings about it on this forum and on PPRUNE, just to let village people know that the situation is monitored from beyond the fatherland's border, with all borderland countries politicians and airline CEOs having a heck of a giggling time. Perhaps is it the reason why SN management keeps such a low profile.
To pour a bit of Jet A1 on the fire, I would love to share my humble opinion on the subject.
First and foremost, to dear 19th century educated LX-LGX, there is an old adage that should reminds us all (and you in particular) that somehow, sometimes and anyway, we always get our money worth…In other (aviation) words: “When one pays peanuts, one gets monkeys”.
Next, to the pilots: Belgium is a beautiful country with a mild climate and a good quality of life. (Yes, I insist, it has! For what else motivation would all those international institutions, littered with political, military and Euro bloodsuckers, be established in Belgium?) Quality has a price, which does not infer that Belgium provides good value for money. Still, living in Belgium is a luxury; those who went to work and live abroad will vouch for it, unless they settled in Monte Carlo with adequate means.
Consequently, if you want to work (fly) in Belgium, you will start by paying through your nostrils to achieve an appropriate level of qualifications, and then surrender half of your (prospective) earnings to the plethora of metics and helots (a good proportion of which are elected) enjoying the Belgian working class solidarity. In Belgium, work is a privilege, not (anymore) a right! Like all privileges, it must be acquired, maintained and appreciated. Brussels Airlines is but the most obvious of what has started happening in Belgian Aviation: Pilots might not be very educated, but they are no monkeys; however, they do not necessarily want to be considered as privileged, hence the seek for greasier grass in more generous meadows.
Were Airlines Managers to double pilots' gross income it would hardly make any significant difference; this has been demonstrated in various occasions. Consequently, I am convinced that the discussion about B.Air pilots' exodus should not be limited to the situation at B.Air, but extended to the whole flying nation.
I have no solution to propose, only a suggestion: Organize a week long closure of the Belgian lower airspace: All pilots would stop working in whatever way they see fit (strike, sick leave, resignation…) and coordinate this with the ATC controller union (they are aviators too, and as much concerned as the pilots). Very unrealistic perspective indeed: Belgian sheep havn't got a fraction of the guts Ozzies pilots exhibited three lustra ago! It took them centuries of slavery to get out of the tomb, it might take them another few ones to put some new age aristocrats under the guillotine, figuratively speaking.
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flyavro
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Post by flyavro »

something else LX, you got a bit wrong:

if you want to send your resignation by post then you have to do that 3 days before the end of the month, that is correct.
BUT if you go and hand in your resignation personally then you can do that on the last working day.

Oh yeah and about your comment of us leaving if we don't like it: management has been saying that for years now. Not anymore though: seems too many of us are doing exactly that and now they're having huge problems to keep the fleet flying.

Maybe you should try to get some pilot friends within SN so you can get a realistic view of how things are going around there, unless you prefer to keep as far away from us as you can and remain stuck with your prejudices.
If that's the case then I'm really sorry for you because we really are a nice bunch of people.

Homo aeroportus: we can keep flying with one engine out (that's not even a mayday for us) but regulations state that we have to land within 45 minutes (they are trying to change that rule though).

Oh yeah Tolip could you check your PM?
runway in sight, going for the visual

airazurxtror
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Post by airazurxtror »

flyavro wrote:
if you want to send your resignation by post then you have to do that 3 days before the end of the month, that is correct.
BUT if you go and hand in your resignation personally then you can do that on the last working day.
Right ( the registered letter (lettre recommandée) must be sent 3 working days before the 1st of next month). And you can also send your resignation by an "huissier" (don't know the translation in English).
Once you have given notice of resignation, during the lenghth of the "préavis", you have the right to take, each week, one day or two half-day off, in order to find a new job (those days are paid).

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Corto
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Post by Corto »

Huissier : Court Usher (in this instance). In USA: Sheriff's Officer or Bailiff
Preavis : Notice
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Vinnie-Winnie
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Post by Vinnie-Winnie »

For those interested by the pprune discussion on the same topic:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3441444

Makes for some fun reading!

LX-LGX
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Post by LX-LGX »

Corto wrote:
First and foremost, to dear 19th century educated LX-LGX, there is an old adage that should reminds us all (and you in particular) that somehow, sometimes and anyway, we always get our money worth…In other (aviation) words: “When one pays peanuts, one gets monkeys”.
1. If showing respect for your employer and those who have invested some millions in your company is 19th century tradition and not done in your modern era, I take that as a compliment.

2. Brussels Airlines' operational profit is less then 1%. Will it improve if they give pilots 30% pay rise? No, my dear Corti: it will mean the end of the pilot shortage, but also the end of the company. In case you don't know: most shareholders are banks, and they are not afraid to write off a wrong investment.

3. Pilots are the best paid group within Brussels Airlines. If you call their salary peanuts resulting in monkeys, what kind of animals are all other employees then?
Corto wrote: I have no solution to propose, only a suggestion: Organize a week long closure of the Belgian lower airspace: All pilots would stop working in whatever way they see fit (strike, sick leave, resignation…) and coordinate this with the ATC controller union (they are aviators too, and as much concerned as the pilots). Very unrealistic perspective indeed: Belgian sheep haven't got a fraction of the guts Ozzies pilots exhibited three lustra ago! It took them centuries of slavery to get out of the tomb, it might take them another few ones to put some new age aristocrats under the guillotine, figuratively speaking.
Seems the Maltese wine has made another victim here.

phenix
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Post by phenix »

hello

do you have an idea the next selection for ab-initio ????

thanks

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Corto
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Post by Corto »

LX, I see you are in travel trade. So all your posts and brain washing attempts are simply aimed at protecting your own business, right?
Or are you delegated by "The Lobby" to take the temperature and try to modify labour trends?
Labour is still driven by market laws: Offer and demand; today in aviation, it is a workers market, i.e. more jobs available than "qualified" pilots, and to spice it all up, the EU has implemented JAR-FCL for your dismay, making it possible for European pilots to seek better T&C elsewhere, following "The Market".
You can cry your heart out, Buddy; whatever you say on this forum, whatever obsolete ideas you try to push in here and elswhere, young people (and young at heart, unlike you) with the crave to fly will follow their bliss and abide by the laws, market and others.
Maltese wine is healthier then what you put in your pipe.
Persiste et signe,
CM
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fly
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Post by fly »

LX-LGX wrote:
2. Brussels Airlines' operational profit is less then 1%. Will it improve if they give pilots 30% pay rise? No, my dear Corti: it will mean the end of the pilot shortage, but also the end of the company. In case you don't know: most shareholders are banks, and they are not afraid to write off a wrong investment.
Maybe it will help their profit margin if they put less managers in one position with less company cars ......
3. Pilots are the best paid group within Brussels Airlines. If you call their salary peanuts resulting in monkeys, what kind of animals are all other employees then?
Within the Brussels Airlines group? you are sure? I don't think so...
Well maybe you can cut their salaries again by 20 or 30% and then they will all run away for better skies and then you can start a bus company instead of an airline.....

airazurxtror
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Post by airazurxtror »

CityJet is recruiting direct entry Captains for its Avro RJ fleet.
Non type-rated pilots will be type-rated by CityJet. The package offered includes "competitive salary including productivity pay up to 140.000 euros gross per annum."
Contract positions for type-rated Captains also available.
(seen in "Le Soir", "Références" section, this morning).
Is that pay so much higher than at Brussels Airlines ?

dre
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Post by dre »

140 000 in cityjet is more or less 120 000 netto, due contract in Ireland and base outside ireland, so taxes much lower and even after tax you get lot of your taxes paid back.

GRTZ

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Gate-A1
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Post by Gate-A1 »

It's a Irish based airline but who operate flight in France for Air France. Some social charges are added for the french based pilots. The situation is not clear and is not going to be shortly.

http://www.rcoco.com/viewtopic.php?t=27 ... ht=cityjet (sorry in french only)

Same story for Easyjet and Ryanair. This does not mean it is a bad position but a proposition who need to be check with a legal advisor.

fcw
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Post by fcw »

airazurxtror wrote:CityJet is recruiting direct entry Captains for its Avro RJ fleet.
Non type-rated pilots will be type-rated by CityJet. The package offered includes "competitive salary including productivity pay up to 140.000 euros gross per annum.").
Is that pay so much higher than at Brussels Airlines ?
If BruAIr would be paying these salaries this topic wouldn't exist!

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tolipanebas
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Post by tolipanebas »

airazurxtror wrote:CityJet is recruiting direct entry Captains for its Avro RJ fleet.
Non type-rated pilots will be type-rated by CityJet.
The package offered includes "competitive salary including productivity pay up to 140.000 euros gross per annum."
Contract positions for type-rated Captains also available.
(seen in "Le Soir", "Références" section, this morning).

Is that pay so much higher than at Brussels Airlines ?
To answer your question airazurxtror:
YES the offer is much better than at SN and to quantify my reply: the offer is about double the GROSS salary of that of the average RJ captains at SN.... :shock:

All this is just showing once more the point about the high taxes in Belgium is largely off topic, as even a leveled taxation system would still not give us competitive salaries.

The real issue is the ridiculously low GROSS salaries still paid by SN.
SN need to open its eyes, see what others are doing, admit the golden days of pilot exploitation are over and bring themselves in line with the rest...

Indeed,
read it again LX:
'COMPETITIVE SALARY' for an RJ captain nowadays is 140.000 euro annually, or north of 10,000 euro a month!
You may think it is disgusting to get that much, but these are the going rates for pilots in the industry nowadays and SN doesn't want to pay that much, well then 'Brussels Airlines' will soon be 'Brussels Buslines' I am afraid... :lol:
Last edited by tolipanebas on 04 Aug 2007, 14:51, edited 3 times in total.

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Corto
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Post by Corto »

LX, I am not answering your posts for your sake, as there is little chance that the stiffness of your, let’s say “positions”, is likely to be enhanced by any kind of sensible reasoning. You seem to be stuck in the concrete of your prejudiced ideas and not even worth the effort to be pulled out of them. However, my fellow aviators, whom you despise so passionately, deserve a little entertaining reading to balance your provocative posts, and I hereby offer them one by accepting this joust with you.
1. If showing respect for your employer and those who have invested some millions in your company is 19th century tradition and not done in your modern era, I take that as a compliment.


I do respects persons, for their being persons and for what they do as humans; if these persons happen to contribute to the national economy and welfare, to manage decently an organisation, to direct people, then they deserve respect, whether they err or not. An “investor” is not necessarily a person, you say it yourself below, it is, more often than not, a financial institution. I do not care for people, ideas or systems that put institutions before and above people!!!
In the middle ages and, still today, in developing countries, the plebe would obey blindly, in awe, to the Lords or the rich Bourgeois who would exploit them. That era is over! It is not my modern era, it is simply today and in the western civilisation.
2. …it will mean the end of the pilot shortage, but also the end of the company.
Read again this marvellous sentence of yours and find out the oxymoron in it!
To you fellow aviators, I will not insult your intelligence by explaining it!
….In case you do not know: most shareholders are banks, and they are not afraid to write off a wrong investment.
See answer to point 1. BTW, have you heard of the concept “Investing in people”?
3. Pilots are the best-paid group within Brussels Airlines. If you call their salary peanuts resulting in monkeys, what kind of animals are all other employees then?
You have a fluent knowledge of what is called “business” English, but your understanding of the lingua Britannica stops there. Actually, it is your understanding of lingua homini that needs polishing. Aesop, Phaedrus, G. Chaucer, La Fontaine and Gert Jan Van Dijk have all been using animal world as a comparison to the human world. However, to grasp its subtlety, one has to be able to escape the surly bonds of Earth, on which you seem to be definitely glued.

Closer to the topic, it is obvious to all and sundry with half a working brain, that the adventure of Sabena-SN Brussels-Brussels Airways is utterly political and has no foundation in sound economical development of the transport industry.
Pilots are a better (not best) paid group not only in Brussels Airlines but also in all Airlines and in most Air Forces and Navy Aviation in the world. There are reasons for that and if you do not know them then you are not part of the aviation world. Pilots are also the most envied group of professional, by all other groups of the industry, for their higher income and for their ability to escape those surly bonds of Earth (which even passengers cannot do). For those coveted privileges, pilots pay an un-assessable price, which is invaluable to them but which the non (professionally) piloting community (of which you seem to be part) cannot and will never be able to comprehend.
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fly
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Post by fly »

Corto,.....respect ......

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