Pilot shortage at Brussels Airlines ?

Post by **sn26567** » 23 Jul 2007, 10:16

JOVAN wrote:Please can you give a list of countries without a 'National' carrier to prove your point?

Well, it seems that, not far away from Belgium, Switzerland and The Netherlands have lost the ownership of their "national" carrier.

flyavro · Post by **flyavro** » 23 Jul 2007, 10:47

I guess you can understand that I'll not say where I'll be going as they a)didn't receive my resignation letter yet and b) I'd rather remain incognito as much as possible. I've seen what they've done to that union FO and don't want to live the same experience.

About the "rumour" of jet airways: it originated on the first floor so I think those guys know something about it.
I just heard it by way of other crews.

I hope that it will be confirmed untrue, I really do because that would really be another disaster for our company.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 23 Jul 2007, 13:42

flyavro wrote:this is the moment LX steps in and starts blaming the unions for causing all this

is this the way a company should be run? Hope it opens the eyes of the remaining pilots.

Without arguments, attacking the messenger indeed is a way out.

An airline has to be run by it's management, not by it's pilots.

Once again, for the record: I'm no Brussels Airlines staff, nor Brussels Airport, and I've never have been (same for Sabena). But I've done business with them since most of the self declared pilots/managers here still were wearing Pampers. And I can assure the non-pilots here: the anti Brussels Airlines posts are not representing the b-air company spirit I've met (and which seems to be unknown by some of the posters here). Seems the more one earns at b-air, the less one respect the company.

flyavro · Post by **flyavro** » 23 Jul 2007, 14:23

I fully agree with you: the company should be run by the managers! When are they starting? Because for the moment we haven't seen a lot of examples of their brilliance.

And why should pilots not be good managers? Are we too stupid, didn't we study for it (may I remind you that most of our managers didn't either) or what are you implying? I agree that everybody has their role to fulfill but we as flight crew know that we need to use all resources to plot the best way to proceed. It's called CRM, maybe our managers should attend a course or two. So no I don't think we should run the company but only that we emply people for that who know what they are doing and are doing it right. We don't need no more short term thinking because we won't be around for much longer if they do that.

I fly with the people representing this company to the big public every day so I guess I know the B-air spirit better than you do thank you very much. Maybe you should get a reality check and try talking with the frontliners.

About the respect/money insult: you are indeed right once again! Wow so much insight you have. The ones earning the most have left the ship: Training manager, DO, DO's secretary, technical pilot. Does that show a lot of respect for the company? Our last CEO ruined more of what we all built up over the last few years in only one year. Respect dude!

I respect my collegues and that's more than the company does.

Oh yeah heard another name of someone leaving today. Guess it still isn't over.

Please all back on topic, thanks.

p.s. I was really motivated in this company and would have done almost anything for it. like most of the rest of the pilots who are leaving.

Pikey · Post by **Pikey** » 23 Jul 2007, 14:40

a captain or a FO?

flyavro · Post by **flyavro** » 23 Jul 2007, 14:49

FO. But I think everyone with half a mind could see this one coming. don't know when he's starting at his new gig but soon.
some others still waiting for an answer or going to the sim.

smart guys keep it secret as long as possible until they have their new contract.

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 23 Jul 2007, 15:05

For the ones who don't know what market conditions are, here is a typical job offer: Indigo (India) is looking for Airbus 320 captains: 10.000€/month, 12 weeks leave a year, free accomodation, taxi to and from work, private medical, loss of licence,...
A nice offer, but far away from Belgium... if BruAir would raise the salaries by +/- 20% they should be able to stop the bleeding as the comfort of being at home would be more attractive than the money far away from home.

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 23 Jul 2007, 20:25

flyavro wrote: smart guys keep it secret as long as possible until they have their new contract.

Why? It shouldn't bother them... And it could put extra pressure (if they still need some) on the management to know that even more are waiting to go...

TUB001 · Post by **TUB001** » 23 Jul 2007, 21:22

FlightMate wrote:
flyavro wrote: smart guys keep it secret as long as possible until they have their new contract.
Why? It shouldn't bother them... And it could put extra pressure (if they still need some) on the management to know that even more are waiting to go...

That is also called being naive

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 23 Jul 2007, 23:35

indeed ^^

No but honestly, I don't see any reason to be afraid of saying to your colleagues you'd be gone soon.

Any scare tactics to be expected by the management?

flyavro · Post by **flyavro** » 23 Jul 2007, 23:39

where have you been these last few months?

Yes they are not above trying to make sure you can't leave. Although it hasn't happened anymore since the Netjets-incident that we know of

But better safe than sorry.

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 24 Jul 2007, 00:05

flyavro wrote:where have you been these last few months?

Abroad passing interviews

(just kidding)

You're right, scare tactics from management exist. But the poor chap would have faced it anyway, as he required a reference letter before getting the contract. So it wouldn't have changed a lot if he kept it secret to his colleagues or not...

Anyway, rumors are spreading fast in the crewroom, so better keep it for you indeed, but sometimes you're just so glad you'll be gone soon, you just want your friends to know it

JOVAN · Post by **JOVAN** » 24 Jul 2007, 08:54

sn26567 wrote:
JOVAN wrote:Please can you give a list of countries without a 'National' carrier to prove your point?
Well, it seems that, not far away from Belgium, Switzerland and The Netherlands have lost the ownership of their "national" carrier.

And it also seems they do everything possible to keep their name, their livery, their identity.

SAS is to be split up sooner or later in Danish, Swedish, Norwegian parts.

All (big) US airlines are funded one way or another by US-government or agencies.

Air China is the flag carrier of China, other depend on local governments,..

The "flag-carrier" concept is not dead at all. Only Belgium, where nobody seems to know the National Anthem, is an exception.
Many things already died in Belgium.

There are about 200 countries and territories worldwide, most having their National Airline. Prestige and/or strategic interests are not yet dead.

Post by **sn26567** » 24 Jul 2007, 10:07

Somebody who wants to remain anonymous, but is known to me, wanted to post this message about a possible deal between Brussels Airlines and Jet Airways:

"I can confirm that companies may have clauses in the contract stating that a partner cannot hire personnel of the company, and even that the partner cannot do that until X months after the ending of the contract.

This does not happen only in the aviation sector (I'm not in the aviation business). I know this because I am involved in contract making, and these types of contracts passed already under my eyes.

Is it legal? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer, I can just tell you it is done, and more than you might think. Brussels Airlines is for sure not the only one doing this!"

dre · Post by **dre** » 24 Jul 2007, 10:37

Is there not an internal Brussels airlines forum? I find it strange that all those problems are discussed on a public forum like this.
I understand that people want to leave the company (and it is happening in nearly all companies now) but dont see a reason to discuss all this on a public forum like this.

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 24 Jul 2007, 12:32

JOVAN wrote:
And it also seems they do everything possible to keep their name, their livery, their identity.

SAS is to be split up sooner or later in Danish, Swedish, Norwegian parts.

All (big) US airlines are funded one way or another by US-government or agencies.

Air China is the flag carrier of China, other depend on local governments,..

The "flag-carrier" concept is not dead at all. Only Belgium, where nobody seems to know the National Anthem, is an exception.
Many things already died in Belgium.

There are about 200 countries and territories worldwide, most having their National Airline. Prestige and/or strategic interests are not yet dead.

Instead of standing on its own feet u'd rather poor money at the national carrier! With such ideads we wouldn't be in the EU, furthermore such actions actually made us one of the most highly taxed countries on income in the world! Do you see the relationship between pilots leaving, high income tax and a high spending state? If you don't I'll be happy to explain you...

JOVAN · Post by **JOVAN** » 24 Jul 2007, 12:59

Vinnie-Winnie wrote:
JOVAN wrote:
And it also seems they do everything possible to keep their name, their livery, their identity.

SAS is to be split up sooner or later in Danish, Swedish, Norwegian parts.

All (big) US airlines are funded one way or another by US-government or agencies.

Air China is the flag carrier of China, other depend on local governments,..

The "flag-carrier" concept is not dead at all. Only Belgium, where nobody seems to know the National Anthem, is an exception.
Many things already died in Belgium.

There are about 200 countries and territories worldwide, most having their National Airline. Prestige and/or strategic interests are not yet dead.
Instead of standing on its own feet u'd rather poor money at the national carrier! With such ideads we wouldn't be in the EU, furthermore such actions actually made us one of the most highly taxed countries on income in the world! Do you see the relationship between pilots leaving, high income tax and a high spending state? If you don't I'll be happy to explain you...

- pouring money in the National Carrier is no longer allowed, except for the Big nations. ( We will soon see if Italy is a Big nation or not )
- supporting the National Carrier can however be done by many other means: preferred carrier for government employees, tax facilities (see what SN pilots are claining now versus pilot-status in other EU countries?....;
- EU ??? good joke !!!

Pilots are leaving anywhere, but SN and other Belgian carriers are worse affected because lack of policy in Belgium versus friendly policy in most European countries (EU-members or not)

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 24 Jul 2007, 18:11

any idea of the cost per training (sim + touch'n go's)? (Airbus - Avro)

If a capt 330 leaves, it could cost as much as 4 trainings: capt RJ -> capt 330 ; F/O 330 -> capt RJ ; F/O RJ -> F/O 330 ; Ab-initio pilot -> F/O RJ ...

lot of money lost this year... (although mainly capt RJ and F/O RJ are leaving)

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 24 Jul 2007, 20:20

JOVAN wrote: - supporting the National Carrier can however be done by many other means: preferred carrier for government employees, tax facilities (see what SN pilots are claining now versus pilot-status in other EU countries?....

Right so you are telling me that BE potentially should pay twice or 3 times as much just to support the Belgian flag carrier? Once again that is just encouraging waste which will be repercuted on you me and at the end Brussel's airline pilots!

JOVAN wrote:- EU ??? good joke !!! ?.

What joke exactly? Are you putting down all the achievements of the common market, including Belgian pilots leaving at will to work under better conditions or better pay elsewhere in europe?

JOVAN wrote:Pilots are leaving anywhere, but SN and other Belgian carriers are worse affected because lack of policy in Belgium versus friendly policy in most European countries (EU-members or not)

Here is an idea! Why doesn't SN's management move SN's official address to somewhere like Ireland? No-one stops Ryanair flying from Charleroi to other countries because they are not registered in Belgium. Nor does anyone say they should be under the British tax regime though it's obvious that most of their operations are now based in the UK!

jan_olieslagers · Post by **jan_olieslagers** » 24 Jul 2007, 20:43

Vinnie-Winnie wrote: Here is an idea! Why doesn't SN's management move SN's official address to somewhere like Ireland? No-one stops Ryanair flying from Charleroi to other countries because they are not registered in Belgium. Nor does anyone say they should be under the British tax regime though it's obvious that most of their operations are now based in the UK!

Surely the old Sabena once tried to hire their pilots under a Luxemburg contract? Nihil nove sub solem...