Pilot shortage at Brussels Airlines ?

jan_olieslagers · Post by **jan_olieslagers** » 21 Jul 2007, 13:41

JAFflyer wrote:you have to earn the status of national carrier

Even beyond that: the mere idea of a "national carrier" is dead and gone. Only some 19th century minded states like France and Italy still believe in the concept, and so do some stiff heads in Brussels. No wonder they can't succeed.

flyavro · Post by **flyavro** » 21 Jul 2007, 13:44

ok my apologies then

I agree with you on the DAT/Brussels part.

Anyway back on topic: I guess Jetair has the same problem with their pilots (they aren't known to be much better employers at all are they).

Right now all the companies are trying to do is to slide responsibility of their misconduct to the politicians. I'll repeat it again: pilots aren't only leaving because other companies pay more. They are fed up of being abused and disrespected.
And that is the fault of management who for 6 years thought they could crush all flight personnel after the demise of Sabena. And they were right for the first few years: we really had nowhere else to go. But times do change.

Now is the time that aviation is booming. Who knows how long this wil last. This means that now is also the time to change positions and get on the seat where you want to sit when things will be going rough again.

If the Belgian companies can't even get their acts together in this favourable economic climate what will they do when everything starts to slip into the abyss again?

All pilots should better be aware that right now is the time for them to act or remain where they are for a very long time (ok maybe you have a year or whatever, but it won't remain like this forever).

Once the flightschools get the students pumping out at the rate required... (and Asia does have a lot of people living there)

But once again: everybody his/her own choice.

And for those who do want a lot of money: you'll never get rich flying in Belgium. (for a belgian company that is)

A390 · Post by **A390** » 21 Jul 2007, 14:44

How many BruAir pilots went finally to Jet Airways ? and how many to follow? Will they get based in BRU finally? Every info welcome.

flyavro · Post by **flyavro** » 21 Jul 2007, 14:59

i think at least one or two airbus captains. not really sure about the exact number.

a lot of other captains are trying to get in there but no reply yet.
there are rumours of an agreement with Brussels not to hire our pilots but I really hope this isn't true because that would be a real firestarter.

as always don't know about virgin.

JOVAN · Post by **JOVAN** » 21 Jul 2007, 17:47

jan_olieslagers wrote:
JAFflyer wrote:you have to earn the status of national carrier
Even beyond that: the mere idea of a "national carrier" is dead and gone. Only some 19th century minded states like France and Italy still believe in the concept, and so do some stiff heads in Brussels. No wonder they can't succeed.

And some 21st Century countries like Netherlands, Germany, Britain, Spain, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Austria, Finland, Ireland, Portugal,.... not to mention tyhe "new" European Czech, Poland, Slovenia, ...

All Asian countries, Canada, Mexico,South Africa, Ethiopia, Kenia, Morocco, China, Taiwan, Japan,...

Please can you give a list of countries without a 'National' carrier to prove your point????.

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 21 Jul 2007, 21:09

flyavro wrote:a lot of other [Airbus] captains [from SN] are trying to get in there [JetAirways] but no reply yet andthere are rumours of an agreement with Brussels not to hire our pilots but I really hope this isn't true because that would be a real firestarter.

Indeed, somebody at Jet Airways is said to have confirmed to one applicant from SN that the reason he was not taken on was solely that the code share agreement between the Indian carrier and SN has a clause in it in which SN agrees to help Jet Airways with the operational organisation of their BRU hub and that in return they will NOT hire pilots coming from SN. Aparently this clause has to remain strictly confidential, because Jet Airways now refuses to comment on the matter...

Interesting case to take to Prof. Dr. Em. Blanpain, as it in effect is an extra-legal contractual clause which hinders the free movement of employees within the European Union.

Some other fire starters...

SN has found out that the contract pilots it will have to hire to fly their A330s will cost them at least 14,000 euro a month each, or more than double the cost (FYI: this is obviously much different than the net salary) of a 'normal' captain on this plane and that due to the location of the brooker from which they will hire, this will be their NET salary...
You can already imagine what this does to the morale of the pilot community at Brussels Airlines who has been working their buts off for peanuts the last few years, don't you?

Also, we know that SN has looked around but is unable to find any contract pilots for their AVROs, since there are no type rated pilots available on the market for this type, so that they have no choice but to ground at least two planes as from September while at the same time they will wetlease an equal number of planes to cope with the grounding. It is said the budget for this brilliant idea to ground planes of yourself (for which you obviously still need to pay the lessor as normal) AND simultaneously wetlease other planes is budgetted to cost MORE than half a million euro a month! Or 2 million till the end of this year alone!

Seems Brussels Airlines apparently prefers to throw its money at others rather than invest it in their own employees: talking about another blow in the face of those who are constantly asked to work their but off!

All the above are textbook examples of very poor and short sighted HR management at Brussels Airlines, which not only will cost more than paying normal wages like we have been asking for some time now, but will also have a very negative influence on the moral and the spirit of those working for the company, but hey, RESPECT is a word not known by our management.

The running joke right now within the crewroom is that we should all just resign, go to Park Aviation (where SN has been knocking on the door desperately for qualified AVRO pilots without success) and then come back to fly for SN the next day... at double the salary!

flyavro · Post by **flyavro** » 21 Jul 2007, 21:21

this is the moment LX steps in and starts blaming the unions for causing all this

is this the way a company should be run?

hope it opens the eyes of the remaining pilots.

jan_olieslagers · Post by **jan_olieslagers** » 21 Jul 2007, 21:37

JOVAN wrote:
jan_olieslagers wrote:
JAFflyer wrote:you have to earn the status of national carrier
Even beyond that: the mere idea of a "national carrier" is dead and gone. Only some 19th century minded states like France and Italy still believe in the concept, and so do some stiff heads in Brussels. No wonder they can't succeed.
And some 21st Century countries like Netherlands, Germany, Britain, Spain, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Austria, Finland, Ireland, Portugal,.... not to mention tyhe "new" European Czech, Poland, Slovenia, ...

All Asian countries, Canada, Mexico,South Africa, Ethiopia, Kenia, Morocco, China, Taiwan, Japan,...

Please can you give a list of countries without a 'National' carrier to prove your point????.

OK, my message wasn't well worded, apologies. The idea I mean to be dead (and then again I have to allow it is dying but quite far from actually dead) is of an airline actively linked to a country/nation/government like the old Sabena was. Today many airlines act and behave like "flag carriers" without having any special tie with their governments. The striking example is the AirFrance/KLM fusion, even if they have no more official tie to their country they continue to operate under the traditional national name so that their customers feel like being on "their" airline. I believe Aeroflot illustrates the same story.

And then again there are some clear examples of countries that never had a flag carrier:
-) first and most of all, the US of A
-) the Scandinavian countries who were wise enough to create a supranational flag carrier

Some sad examples of the flag carrier principle failing:
-) Olympic
-) Air Zaire
-) El Al (? weren't they in deep financial trouble?)
-) right now, Alitalia
-) Swissair
-) VARIG
-) more to come ... !

BTW you mention China but who is their "flag carrier"? I always believed they are rather like the US with several big carriers, both international and domestic, though I daresay there'll be some degree of state control?

Thanks for positive discussion!

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 21 Jul 2007, 21:37

flyavro wrote:this is the moment LX steps in and starts blaming the unions for causing all this

Maybe he'd rather like to comment on yet another upcoming breach of a collective labour agreement by our brilliant management too then, since it was agreed a few years ago no production (i.e. flying hours) would be outsourced in planning stage, but for a once daily CDG flight.

Wetleasing an entire fleet of medium haul planes... oh dear, it actually isn't allowed by our CLA, but hey: who cares about it at the 4th floor of our HQ?!

Darjeeling · Post by **Darjeeling** » 21 Jul 2007, 21:50

Hehe it seems the super graduated managers of SN have found "the four angles of the circle" ! Indeed, Parc Aviation has no more Avro type-rated pilots. Mainly because this becomes an obsolete airplane nowadays in the global market. About the "het moet niks kosten" policy we see what in ends up with: searching for external pilots paid up to 3 times the SN wage. I don't speak about their superb fourth A330. SFW was a "popular" bird with Air Madrid. Let you guess why. Now if the Jetairways plot is ever proved that could be a tremendous social bomb as well. From a legal point of view it's even more than this... A relative of mine ex-Sabena A320 (whom never flew for b.air-lighteco+ or SN code-share though) now with Jet-aw on 340 (soon 330) told me it was true and widely known by expats flying for Jet-aw.

flyavro · Post by **flyavro** » 21 Jul 2007, 21:57

about the flag carriers:

SAS is doing really badly so not a really good example there, plus they are dividing back into country-based subsidiaries.

The US airlines are probably the most funded airlines around, have you looked at the protection they get from their government?

When I say a flag carrier then I mean the main airline of a country. I don't mean they should be getting special considerations from the government. In fact they should be living up to an even higher standard than the rest.

Currently the BCAA doesn't even touch any of the belgian airlines as it should.

Hey Toli, I fear we'll be getting no support from the unions at all. Don't forget that it's not the pilot delegates who decide here, it's the union secretaries and I know 1 who's so far up the *** of our management...
Recently lost quite a lot of his delegates too (most of them finally switched to the right side of the table and became managers). I hope the other unions will do the right thing.

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 21 Jul 2007, 22:04

Darjeeling wrote:Hehe it seems the super graduated managers of SN have found "the four angles of the circle" !

Our senior management have recently come to the same conclusion in disbelief too.

For years, they have been playing around with us because we were type rated on 'just' the AVRO-RJ, a plane which is indeed not very commonly in use and they have been very lucky no airlines wanted to recruit non type rated pilots for almost 5 years now;

However, times have changed and so has demand for pilots!
So drastically even, that not having the right type rating is no longer of any disadvantage to an applicant wanting to join an airline who is recruiting 'en masse' and if you say you have a few thousand hours on the AVRO-RJ, it serves as a very good recommendation of your professionalism and skills as this little British quad-jet is known to be a very complex plane to manage.

What has been the insurance policy of DAT against a massive outflow for several years (i.e. our very uncommon type rating) now proofs to be the nail in their coffin (no type rated free lancers available worldwide!!!!)

Jester · Post by **Jester** » 22 Jul 2007, 12:12

teddybAIR wrote:
And please bare in mind that I am speaking as an outsider, thus consider this as a small piece of advice (for SN management):....

bAIR

Even Montogomery Burns knows "A Happy Worker is A Busy Worker" What are all these management schools and incentives good for if you can watch The Simpsons

In addition to my first post, what I forgot, "upgrade possibility" If a pilot (F/O AVRO) wants to experience Long Haul flying he's/her's chances are very slim to achieve this at DAT/SNBA/Bru Air. Not only in Belgium but all over the world pilots are changing carrier more and more to achieve whatever position they want to fly.

Concerning Loyalty : The 'good old days" when one started at one company and stayed there untill retirement are gone. As a mater of fact this is also true for EVERY industry, not only aviation.

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 22 Jul 2007, 14:03

flyavro wrote:i think at least one or two airbus captains. not really sure about the exact number.

a lot of other captains are trying to get in Jet Airways but no reply yet.
there are rumours of an agreement with Brussels not to hire our pilots but I really hope this isn't true because that would be a real firestarter.

It is true! If you worked for BruAir in the last 12 months Jet Airways will not hire you. A written proof will be difficult to obtain, but all the guys who were turned down recently is enough proof to me... The BruAr guys are highly proffesional, have lots of experience and there is a worldwide shortage of A330 captains, so why does Jet Airways tun them down???

fly · Post by **fly** » 22 Jul 2007, 14:08

and then they wonder why so many take a run from the airline.
Somebody should take them to court!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 22 Jul 2007, 15:22

yeah... but how would you prove it?

Our new DFO said officially they could stop pilots from leaving to cargo.b or Jet airways by giving phone calls to old or new "friends", but they don't do it.

Riiight... (well at least it seems true for cargo.b, when you see how many leave there)

flyavro · Post by **flyavro** » 22 Jul 2007, 22:26

just heard another great management feat:

they lost the codeshare with Jet Airways because they don't have the 5th 330 to fly Toronto on our own.

Guess the agreement not to hire our pilots might be ended also (I hope).

And the award for most fumbling management goes to....

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 23 Jul 2007, 01:23

This is a joke isn't it?

I guess Jet Airways is gonna call some Bruair pilots to apologize

Pikey · Post by **Pikey** » 23 Jul 2007, 08:28

Don't post every rumour for reality. I haven't heard anything about te end of the agreement between Brussels Airlines and Jet Airways. A lot of rumours go around in the crewroom for the moment, fe. names of pilots who will leave the company but when I ask them face to face they seem to fall out the air (Dutch expression translated like a poet). I am not ignoring that we have serious problems at Bru. Air, don't get me wrong.

@flyavro, where are you going to fly the next part of your career?

Cheers,
Pikey

fly · Post by **fly** » 23 Jul 2007, 09:20

a lot of pilots are looking for another employer but are still not confirmed so they don't want anybody to know about it, give them another couple of months.