Pilot shortage at Brussels Airlines ?

kvanhecke · Post by **kvanhecke** » 11 Jul 2007, 11:06

fcw wrote: Koen, you better delete your name because what your company does is illegal!!! They can pay you in Luxemburg for duties you perform overthere and thet don't even need the small office for that.
But, if you work in Belgium for a belgian company via its small office in Lux you better be very discrete...

to fcw and teddybear
dear sirs, who is telling that I work in belgium??
I told I'm working for a belgian company, thats it
it has already been 5 years ago that i worked in belgium
in fact, in my job rotation i'm only 6 months in belgium a year for my time of.
what my company does and how they pay me is absolute legal.
otherwise me and the company would get fined.

dre · Post by **dre** » 11 Jul 2007, 11:21

air france pilots have special "treatement" in french tax law.
Also for belgian airline companies there are international tax planning opportunities but nobody is prepared to use them...

teddybAIR · Post by **teddybAIR** » 11 Jul 2007, 12:05

Well,

Sorry for the misunderstanding then. Nevertheless, you shouldn't present it as "a solution" then. The "solution" you are proposing is actually exactly the challenge that Brussels Airlines is currently facing: employees are leaving for higher net wages thanks to better tax regimes in other countries. Therefore, luxembourg is not the solution, it is the problem we are facing.

Best regards, and my sincere apologies for the misunderstanding.
Tom

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 11 Jul 2007, 12:40

Taxes are not the basic problem:

BruAir capt Gross 7000 tax 3500 Net 3500
Easy Capt Gross 10000 tax 3000 Net 7000
So the difference in tax is only 500 a month. The gross salary at BruAir is simply too low...

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 11 Jul 2007, 13:33

fcw wrote:Taxes are not the basic problem:
BruAir capt. Gross 7,000 tax 3,500 Net 3,500
Easyjet capt. Gross 10,000 tax 3,000 Net 7,000
So the difference in tax is only 500 a month.
The gross salary a BruAir is somply too low...

Correct, the point SN is trying to make is a mute one: it is not incorrect indeed, but it really is virtually irrelevant to the discussion.

As you can see from these figures, even if the Belgian Government would decide to open pandora's box by bringing income taxes on our pilot's wages in line with those abroad (with the certitude that as of the next day other sectors of the Belgian economy will want the same benefits too), it is clear NET salaries would still be lower than elsewhere!

In fact, just to illustrate how ridiculous this 'mute argument' truly is: to earn roughly the same NET salary as elsewhere, the Belgian government would have to waive the ENTIRE income tax on our GROSS salaries!

I have said it before, Brussels Airlines needn't try to put the hot potato in the pands of the Belgian government by pointing its finger to its higher taxation of top salaries, it needs to deal with the problems at hand on its own and tackle them like privately owned airlines accross Europe have done before!

This means first of all: increase our GROSS salaries to put them back in line with the rest of Europe, meaning roughly a 25% gross salary increase.

Secondly, to make sure the handicap of the higher taxation on our wages is tackled swiftly and without long and pointless discussions which will lead us nowhere, the airline must do what several other airlines have done before: NOT by trying to change the fiscal system in Belgium (and thus play Don Cichote), but simply evade to elsehere (100% legal)...

However, these 2 common sense steps were immediately swiped off the table by our management, the first one since they don't want to spend a single euro extra on us as they prefer to cancel flights and spend money on very expensive wet leases while our own planes are remaining grounded due to lack of staff.

The second step was shot down as well because our generous share holders (

) for which we are being told to show everlasting slavish gratitude for being given a job by them have signalled they are unwilling to undercut the Belgian government policy.

JAFflyer · Post by **JAFflyer** » 11 Jul 2007, 15:19

To be honest, the title of this posting should rather be: pilot shortage in Belgium... 'cause I don't think that brussels airlines is the only one having this situation... And of course I mean experienced pilots not young FO's

Flybe · Post by **Flybe** » 11 Jul 2007, 19:53

Taxes are not the basic problem:

BruAir capt Gross 7000 tax 3500 Net 3500
Easy Capt Gross 10000 tax 3000 Net 7000
So the difference in tax is only 500 a month. The gross salary at BruAir is simply too low...

Hold on, there's something wrong with your calculation. I'm not saying that your gross salary paid at b.air is competitive with other gross salaries, I agree on that. But I do see an inconsistency in your analysis.

Gross 7000, with tax 3500 is a 50% tax.
Gross 10000, with a tax 3000 is a 30% tax.

Gross 7000, with a tax of 30% would be net 4900 (tax 2100).
This in my eyes is already a "substantial" rise.

Or from another point of view: gross 10000 with a tax of 50% would be 5000 net. So taxes do make a big difference.

Once again, I'm not saying your gross salary is very low, i'm just saying that you need to compare apples with apples.

Greets,

Pieter

carlcat · Post by **carlcat** » 11 Jul 2007, 21:06

Salaries are different upon the country and the expences in the country .

High home rental is a parameter to increase salaries in the UK
In that way each country does have their reason for higer salaries , lower charges At the end , whats left will be the same .

For the ones working in the UK they will have a higher salary and spend even more for their flat they need to rest , they will have an asocial life and missing their family . We dont speak yet about the cost to travel on a frequent base to the UK .

Is it reasonable ?

dre · Post by **dre** » 11 Jul 2007, 21:10

carlat,

not at all. People work for foreign companies but therefore do not have to life in the country of effective management...

fly · Post by **fly** » 11 Jul 2007, 21:11

you compare to the UK, lets compare to mainland countries holland, germany, france and etc.....

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 11 Jul 2007, 23:43

This is an illustration of the wages across the UK airlines and other operators:

http://www.ipapilot.com/PDF/Airline%20s ... 202006.pdf

I agree with Flybe, the tax difference on the Easyjet example is not 500€ as mentionned but over 1000€ which is quite big.
Don t count on the politicians though, they've seen Sabena getting teared appart and did nothing.

carlcat · Post by **carlcat** » 12 Jul 2007, 09:31

To find a solution on the problem there should be 2 parts to reach targets :

An agrement between the European airlines were salaries are put into different scales with a flexibility within the scales will avoid big discrepancies into the salaries .

On second hand push the EEC to let install a standardisation of taxes in the EEC countries .

Those two points will solve already 80 % of the salary discrepancies for the pilots .

What do you think about this ?

Cartman · Post by **Cartman** » 12 Jul 2007, 11:33

carlcat wrote: An agrement between the European airlines were salaries are put into different scales with a flexibility within the scales will avoid big discrepancies into the salaries .

On second hand push the EEC to let install a standardisation of taxes in the EEC countries .

Dream on. It is impossible to obtain one tax scale within the hole EU. And the european airlines will never reach such an agreement. After all, why would e.g. Ryanair be bothered about the current situation? It's good for them, so they won't give such a present to their competition...

teddybAIR · Post by **teddybAIR** » 12 Jul 2007, 14:34

You cannot merely compare gross salary levels in different countries (even net salaries) and make conclusions based upon that. Salaries in different countries are different for a wide array of reasons:

- balance between offer and demand for the skills
- day to day cost of living (food, clothing,...)
- price of real estate (buy, rental,...)
- criticality of sector for development of the total countrie
- etc.

Just because pilots easily come into contact with colleagues from other countries, does not mean they can demand the same salaries. I invite them to buy - even a small - appartment in London or Paris, or a house in holland. They will be astonnished about the difference in cost of living.

Nevertheless, differences in wages should reflect the differences in cost of living, no more, no less. And whether that's the fact? Well, we'll never know: belgian pilots will minimize this statement, foreign pilots will maximize it...the truth must be somewhere in the middle, don't you think?

fly · Post by **fly** » 12 Jul 2007, 20:47

dispite the things you guys think and say on this , the problem persists , belgian pilots are still leaving for foreign airlines because wages are greater and SOCIAL life is better.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 12 Jul 2007, 22:59

And more are going to leave with Jet Airways' increasing routes to/from BRU

Cartman · Post by **Cartman** » 12 Jul 2007, 23:26

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:And more are going to leave with Jet Airways' increasing routes to/from BRU

There is alledgedly an agreement between those two (part of their codeshare agreement apparantly) that the latter will not accept pilots coming from SN, which wouldn't be so irrational. I heard this once, but I don't know if someone can confirm this...

carlcat · Post by **carlcat** » 13 Jul 2007, 10:09

A lot of points are discussed no solutions can be given or found exept what they name in german " Fingerspitsen gefühl" feel in your fingers what you have to do .

As far I experience personnel department ( from snba)does not have any feeling to human beeings ( I applicated already 4 times for a job and only one time I got an answer) .

In such circomstances SN has to beat a Ryanair (for example) or ?????

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 15 Jul 2007, 20:36

This past weekend (Fri-Sat-Sun) was the busiest ever for Brussels Airlines: 52.000 pax
Fri : 20.000 pax
Sat : 15.800 pax
Sun : 17.200 pax

http://www.nieuwsblad.be/Article/Detail ... 2775070715

for fast growing young companies like Brussels Airlines, it's obvious that there are growing pains, like staff problems. Last week, Brussels Airlines said that 10% of the pilots are leaving, compared to an average of 5%. Main reason: the expensive Belgian social security system, imposing high social charges on salaries.

off course there is a problem, and nobody denies it. But the problem is not like some of the leavers / almost-leavers want us to believe. And hé, why have you never mentionned that the fact that Brussels Airlines is booming, is also an important reason for the shortage?

jan_olieslagers · Post by **jan_olieslagers** » 15 Jul 2007, 20:45

carlcat wrote:A lot of points are discussed no solutions can be given or found exept what they name in german " Fingerspitsen gefühl" feel in your fingers what you have to do .

As far I experience personnel department ( from snba)does not have any feeling to human beeings ( I applicated already 4 times for a job and only one time I got an answer) .

That was the time you checked your spelling, perhaps.

Even upon reading your posting only diagonally I came upon four spelling errors at least; if you wish to take part in an English language forum please begin by mastering that language. Not that your German is much better... And yes, fine language will add to the chances of an application!