Pilot shortage at Brussels Airlines ?

Bracebrace · Post by **Bracebrace** » 06 Jul 2007, 22:53

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:I've been in a cockpit a few times. I haven't noticed the captain doing much more than the 1st officer nor giving him orders all the time... Nowadays they decide together who will fly and who will monitor.(Except for Turkish airlines with their authoritary captains )
When you have been flying for 4, 5 years you might have seen most of the situations. And even then, there is a check-list and routine for nearly every situation.

Euh... Pittsboy is right. You haven't got a clue...

You mix up the PF/PM concept with the captain/first-officer concept. You seem to indicate it's the same thing, while it's a totally different thing. PF/PNF is only a way to clearly distribute the tasks for the execution of the flight.

If all hell breaks loose, you need a captain - a final authority to make final decisions. It's important to have this hierarchy in the cockpit, otherwise you end up in situations without decisions being taken, or two people fighting eachother on what's the best to do. Even if a flight is executed with two pilots who are ranked "captain", you still need to divide this authority.

And believe me, there is NOT a checklist for nearly every situation. Not at all...

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 07 Jul 2007, 04:38

You gotta be kidding

If one Captain can be the final authority in a 2-captain cockpit, why can't a F/O have the final authority in a 2 F/O cockpit?
By the way captain authority has caused the most desastrous accident ever...

I think you haven't yet understood the argument of the light jets one-crew operation.
If one pilot with type-rating (non-captain) can fly a 9 pax jet flying at FL410 at 400kts, why should a two-crew (non-captain) crew not be able to fly the future regional jets with 80 pax on board?
Is the responsability that bigger?
If you answer yes to that question, how do you explain B747's carrying 500+pax to be operated by the same Captain-F/O configuration?

I'm getting tired of explaining... Let's otherwise wait 5 years and talk about it again? 500 years ago they said that the Earth was square...

You mix up the PF/PM concept with the captain/first-officer concept. You seem to indicate it's the same thing, while it's a totally different thing. PF/PNF is only a way to clearly distribute the tasks for the execution of the flight.

Are you serious? 8) I think you have not perceived the meaning...read it again

And believe me, there is NOT a checklist for nearly every situation. Not at all...

Are you a philisof or a pilot?

Flying is a science, airplanes do not crash for no reasons. The rest is about situational awareness and adapting the right or most logical procedures based on your knowledge.

If all hell breaks loose, you need a captain

No, you need your mind

Check this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAPa3Qg5tOM

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 07 Jul 2007, 05:34

An easier solution would be that BruAir starts to pay a competitive salary. They took advantage of the high number of unemployed belgian pilots 5 years ago. During five years they paid the lowest salaries in western europe. They made very very experienced pilots feel rediculous by asking them to write a motivation letter. They had hundreds of applications of guys with 10000+ hours to whom they didn't even bother to send an answer. Now it is payback time. If they raise the salaries to 20-25% less than industry standards, enough people will be tempted to stay and work in belgium. If not by the time Fly4hours concept for 2FO operation is accepted all these FO's will be gone as well and they will need 4 trolley dollies with each 5000 hrs to fly the plane.

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 07 Jul 2007, 10:59

Fly4hours... what is then your definition of a captain, if not a trained F/O who has proven being able to cope with critical situation and with good decision making capabilities?

An F/O is an F/O, point!
If he is entitled to command the crew and take final decisions, he is then a captain! And for this, he needs to prove he is capable of doing it. (Therefore he needs training and checkrides)

FlyA330 · Post by **FlyA330** » 07 Jul 2007, 12:36

Fly4Hours

That's why more and more light jets are getting authorised for a one-crew operation.

The light jets authorised for single-pilot operation are specially build for this and very easy to operate and flown by the pilot/owner and never commercially. But in my opinion it is crazy to fly single pilot (even in a small private jet). When everything is normal it's already very stressful when flying with 2 when you are in a bussy TMA like Brussels, Paris or London. You can imagine what will happen when a single pilot jet has an emergency. Crazy !! So in practise, you will always see a single-pilot certified jet with 2 pilots.
Second thing, the insurance costs are very high for single pilot operation.

JAFflyer · Post by **JAFflyer** » 07 Jul 2007, 13:52

One thing to say about this, if an airliner management is really considering these things, they are not focussing on the most important thing in aviation: safety, and that's just plain dangerous.
I will never step into a commercial airliner with 2 pilots of which neither of them is captain. And that's just common sense!!

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 07 Jul 2007, 17:22

The light jets authorised for single-pilot operation are specially build for this and very easy to operate and flown by the pilot/owner and never commercially.

And air-taxis?That's the new trend in the US... A Florida based air-taxi company has 500 Eclipse VLJ's on order.
And I m not talking about the tasks in general but about responsability.

I will never step into a commercial airliner with 2 pilots of which neither of them is captain. And that's just common sense!!

You might be right about that. Everyone has its own opinion

Corto · Post by **Corto** » 07 Jul 2007, 18:36

How about this one:
A captain, first, second and thirs officer are marine denomination; captain also exist in the army.
In an aeroplane, there is a PILOT. If the aeroplane is certified to be operated with two pilots, one will be the PILOT IN COMMAND (PIC) or in french "pilote commandant de bord", as ICAO, FAR, JAR, ANO etc...all define it very clearly. The other pilot will be co-pilot.
There are very strict and clearly defined requirements to operate as pilot in command in air transportation, and if these requirements are not met there is no way a pilot will be allowed in command on the type in question.
The law has established a minimum experience to qualify for application as pilot in air transport, but the insurances too have their requirements on which they base their fees: A carrier will be allowed to upgrade his pilots to command when they reach the minimum legal experience, even if they are way below the insurances requirements, BUT, the insurance fees are going to be so extravagant that it COULD justify the grounding of aircraft and the cancellation of flights. Ask Korean Air and China Airlines managements.

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » 08 Jul 2007, 08:28

Ok guys, girls, kids, ... back on topic: crew shortage at b.air!

fftopic:

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 08 Jul 2007, 09:20

blackhawk wrote:Ok guys, girls, kids, ... back on topic: crew shortage at b.air!

I only hear negative comments here, with even a silly discussion about the exact number of people who have left during the last six weeks.

Why is nobody from the anti's telling us how many people have joined b.air recently?

Why is nobody of the anti's telling us how many new jobes were needed on very short notice for new routes have been opened recently?

b-air is still a young company with growing pain. Staff problems then are not abnormal.

People leaving for another carrier is also not that exceptional, specially not if the president of that carrier knows all the personal details, competences and salaries from those people, because he has worked for that company untill recently.

TUB001 · Post by **TUB001** » 08 Jul 2007, 09:52

LX-LGX wrote: Why is nobody from the anti's telling us how many people have joined b.air recently?

Funny (or should I say naive) comment... and easy answer. I guess because that is NOT the issue at all. Ab-initios joined the airlines, probably not experienced captains or instructors!!!

People leaving for another carrier is also not that exceptional, specially not if the president of that carrier knows all the personal details, competences and salaries from those people, because he has worked for that company untill recently.

No, maybe not abnormal, but in such amounts, it is! And Brussels Airlines is not the only airline to experience such issues! It is even in the newspapers or in financial magazines... not abnormal you said, well... open your eyes!

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 08 Jul 2007, 11:12

indeed, even b.air management had their eyes shut until recently when they finally admitted there was a problem.

FlyA330 · Post by **FlyA330** » 08 Jul 2007, 11:21

Fly4Hours

And air-taxis?That's the new trend in the US... A Florida based air-taxi company has 500 Eclipse VLJ's on order.

All these air-taxis have decided to fly with a 2 crew cockpit for the insurance and for the safety feeling of the pax.

Back to the topic.

It's true that many ab-initio's are joining Bru.Air but as already written, this is not the problem. Since the unions are not allowing direct entry cpt's to join the company, they cannot fill up the gap.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 08 Jul 2007, 13:39

Haha, off course I knew that the reactions to my post would be like this.

Loyalty towards the company? Company spirit? That's nonsense for people working in administration, sales, PR, or stewardesses (m/f).

Like somebody said about the shortage: "Now it is payback time". Don't tell us you love flying: you mainly love the pay check.

fly · Post by **fly** » 09 Jul 2007, 08:43

euh?........

Sure I do love flying thats my job, but for doing the same job I get payed more elsewhere and fly a nicer aircraft with a more relaxed lifestyle....... what would you choose ( honestly?)
We are not married to Brussels airlines , if some numnut miscalculated pilot usage and pay up in his desk on the 3th or 4th floor its not my problem his hitting the wall right now.
There is no such thing as company loyalty.... wake up.

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 09 Jul 2007, 09:24

LX-LGX wrote: Loyalty towards the company? Company spirit? That's nonsense for people working in administration, sales, PR, or stewardesses (m/f).

Basically yes, but since you already knew it, nothing to be chocked about then...

Just look around you at company events like the christmas party, the family day, the BBQ recently: the stunningly low attendance numbers of flight crew should have learned you pilots do not feel anything special for this company...

LX-LGX wrote:Like somebody said about the shortage: "Now it is payback time". Don't tell us you love flying: you mainly love the pay check.

You seriously thought a 25% pay cut would be just forgotten???

I don't think some free drinks, a half raw slice of meat or a musical event in a relaxing environment in Perk will do the trick, nor will a big public 'thank you' from the big boss or the promise Brussels Airlines might review some minor company policies on crew parking, holiday allocation, sign in time etc...

Let's start at the beginning of it all shall we...?
How much was it again? minus 25 percent?
The company can't pay up? Well sorry then dude, but apparently they can do so at several places next doors and in fact they are on the phone line every single day now, so excuse me for not being impressed by the offering so far, which is just cheep talk really.

flyavro · Post by **flyavro** » 09 Jul 2007, 22:13

this "silly" discussion about how many people left the last few weeks is exactly what this thread is all about!

and it was 9 last month for DAT.

I was wrong earlier when I said 50 it's more like the mid sixties.

Our CEO thinks all problems are over when CargoB have their pilots because then nobody else will leave. How blind are they or what info is he getting?
Does he really believe none of the pilots are interested in Air France, KLM, Cargolux, Netjets, Ryanair,...

For those people hating us pilots who always say we only think about getting money: We stayed put when Belgian aviation came crashing down and we accepted the huge paylosses! I'd like to see you guys live with 25%+ less from one month to the next. We gave our everything for this company to work, and are still doing so today.
The only thing SN has done for us is to decrease working conditions. People these days are dead tired.

We are more than loyal to this company: we give our whole lives.
But enough is enough.
Yes a lot of new FO's started working with us, so what? Wouldn't it have been better if the experienced people stayed with us because everybody is happy here?
We went from a crew index of 6 to just a bit over 4 (but lowering), so please don't say they hired a lot of people.

I am very sorry that I have to say this: they had/have it coming. I really wish it was different, but apparently our management don't care about us.

The people who say we only do it for the money: get a life. You wouldn't stay in your company either if you could earn 50% or more more each mont. Don't be a hypocrit.

We love flying, it's our life, but we don't like to be taken advantage of again and again.

If I ever have anyone of you on board you wouldn't even know I'm tired of this company because I will always do the best I can once I get on my plane.

Have a nice flight all of you!!

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 10 Jul 2007, 02:46

Just asked my manager what he thinks of the situation.

If Brussels Airlines raise their salaries, less people will leave...
The less people leave, the less new F/O's and new captains will need to be trained... the more money will be saved.
On the other hand, he finds that if Brussels Airlines wants to adapt a LCC-model, they should make new F/O's pay for their type-rating themselves like Ryanair and Easyjet do. That would save them alot of money and precious time which could allow them to rise the salaries of at least a bit.

I think he got a point there...

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 10 Jul 2007, 03:44

yes but then, I'm not sure they will find a lot of candidates to pay for their superb BAe146 type-rating.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 10 Jul 2007, 08:11

It's in today's news on
http://www.hln.be/hlns/cache/det/art_51 ... n=homeHVDN

They're gonna wet-lease (ACMI?) an aircraft to compensate the shortage. They also recalled ex-sabena captains for the long-haul routes.

I'm sure the self-sponsored type-rating could work. At least if Brussels Airlines signs a steady contract with the candidates after selection. Maybe pilots would offer more loyalty to their airline if they need to pay by themselves as they would need to think twice before going in?