Pilot shortage at Brussels Airlines ?

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 04 Jul 2007, 21:03

Bru.AIr management might sometimes show very weak moments but I am pretty sure they are doing something about it.
Alot of selections took place the last months and some candidates are still in the process.
Many fresh first officers will get a 50 days lasting training course starting from 30th July. That means that some first officers will be upgraded to a captain position very soon, as I have not heard about first officers leaving the company.

We have shifted from the Captain-First officer-Bord engineer system to the Captain-First officer system.

Maybe Bruair is to introduce a new era with a first officer on a left-hand seat on airline operations? Or are there "heavy" rules that restrict such operations that the CAA can't bend?
To me a crew formed of 2 first officers with 4000 hours on type each is as valuable as a captain with 7000 hours teaming with a new first-officer with only 1000 hours on type respectively.

Post by **speedbird1** » 04 Jul 2007, 21:28

@fly4hours.be

Looking at your website... Don't you know the answers to your questions!

Emirates

zooloflyer · Post by **zooloflyer** » 04 Jul 2007, 21:43

Introducing new FO's is a good initiative but I hear that it was already hard to find people for this last selection.

I don't think there are too many people ready to start waiting in line anymore...

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 04 Jul 2007, 22:42

Fly4hours, you haven't heard first officers leaving the company???

You should clean your ears, then...

fly · Post by **fly** » 04 Jul 2007, 23:28

6 left last week and I was one of them so get your facts right.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 05 Jul 2007, 00:04

Well Emirates, I m not in a position to tell you how much the CAA wants to bend the rules to save Brussels Airlines, I m not sure you understand my reply 8)
At this very point, operations on an Avro/Bae146 under JAR (the smallest ACFT of SN's fleet) require a minimum of 2 qualified pilots of whom at least one captain.
The CAA and only with approval of the JAA can they certify an aircraft to be operated on a less qualified crew of for instance 2 F/O instead of 1F/O & 1 captain and under certain circumstances.
Will they be prepared to do that to save Bru.Air(if that's what can save it)? Maybe yes, maybe not, depends of the interest involved.

Well I'm sure there are F/O's leaving for better horizons after they built some hours on jet with Bruair (for which they should be thankful,and I m sure they are). But fortunate enough, their number is limited compared to the new guys coming in. Many guys are starting on July 30th, some others are going through the last selections. The problem now, is as stated previously by member FlyA330, the experienced pilots (high-time F/O's and Caps) who are leaving the company.

Ideally SN needs as many Caps as F/O's.
1 Cap+1 F/O=1 crew
The problem here is that there are enough F/O's but not enough Caps and for this not enough crews.

Ideally one should shift some F/O to become Caps. µBut that requires extra training which costs money. Extra training means also less flight crew available, means less flights can be operated if not enough crews available, means loss of revenue and costs, means problems,....

Problems that could be avoided if SN gets certified for double F/O operations on some of their small ACFT, as we see in many common private-jet practices. You follow?

To fly : Who is your new employer, what is your experience and what is the reason you left, if I may ask?

TCAS_climb · Post by **TCAS_climb** » 05 Jul 2007, 00:24

Double F/O ops ? Boy, I laughed so much I almost wet my pants.

The concept itself is laughable and the thought that the BCAA might approve it (or even take an initiative that no other CAA has ever taken before) is completely... out of this world, to say the least.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 05 Jul 2007, 00:29

I agree, it's very idealistic, nearly irrealistic to think that the CAA would do so much to save Bru.air.

But Private-jets operate on two F/O's depending on the type and some even on single-crew...

It's just an idea. What can a Captain do that an F/O with some decent experience and a few upgrade briefings can't do? It isn t that difficult to fly an Avro, you know? It even gets boring after a while, I heard. And seen that SN has one of the greatest AVRO fleets in the world the interest is there for such innovation... That would be by far easier than to try to reduce taxes on the whole Belgian flightcrew market...

I would feel safer to fly with two motivated and a bit better paid 3000 hours on type F/O's in the flight deck than a 10000 hours totalitarian captain bored and willing to leave, crewing with a new-born F/O with only 800 hours total time (as the situation tends to become now)...Talking about statistics, the greatest human-factor related deadly accidents have been caused by wrong captain decisions so far...(Example:KLM 747 in Tenerife, AA B757 in South-America,...)

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 05 Jul 2007, 03:02

Fly4hours: You must be BruAir management: selling air and if nobody wants to buy it, it is because of those naughty pilots...
You better start a dreamfactory.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 05 Jul 2007, 04:49

Mr. or Mrs. FCW, you must be a fair Belgian politician. You are very hard-minded and your ideas seem to be very limited, they reflect a lack of entrepreneurial spirit. Expand your ideas and you will explore new horizons with new possibilities and get out of that black & white life of yours.

By the way, Fly4hours.be will rebrand in a few months, after a series of interesting tests in Belgium

Kind regards

say_again · Post by **say_again** » 05 Jul 2007, 09:31

pressman wrote:Phenix ,

If the grammer on your CV is as bad as it is here , maybe that's the reason you are getting no answer .

Pressman, "GRAMMAR", not "GRAMMER".....

flyavro · Post by **flyavro** » 05 Jul 2007, 10:22

I didn't want to answer these posts but I can't help myself.

Indeed the solution to send two FO's is just the best joke I've heard in a long time. Ok maybe the fact that so many of our instructors are leaving is a recent good one also...

Two FO's will NEVER be allowed. There always will have to be at least 1 captain. That's why a crew of 2 captains is allowed (with special training). And I guess you're not flying the Avro because otherwise you wouldn't dream of saying it's an easy aircraft. I'd like to know who told you that because next time I do a deadheading with those guys I'll call in sick and go home.

Earlier on someone said 90 pilots left recently. That's not true: About 50 left since early 2006, but that number is rising rapidly now. The mix is about 60%cpt and 40%FO. These numbers are of course SN only.
Recently the problem is that a lot of instructors are leaving meaning they don't have anyone to train the new arrivals.

Yes a FO training these days only takes less than 2 months. But seeing how our captains complain about the level of competence of the average FO they get to fly with after training I hope everything will get to be ok in the future. Please do not understand me incorrectly: not all new FO's suck!!
A captain these days is formed in 6-7 weeks, it used to be 6 months. That was way too long but now they're really over the other limit.

So please don't ever put 2 FO's in the same cockpit.

And by the way. The stream of pilots leaving the company is only swelling. Air France is actively seeking new pilots, even Flemish guys are taken. Netjets is a vacuum cleaner for pilots.

CargoB (or BCargo, whatever) has taken all our flight managers:DO, Head of training, DO secretary (very important woman), technical pilot, probably our recently ex-new-DO also, some instructors,... and they don't have enough FO's yet but a lot of our guys really want to fly the 747 for more money. Weird huh?

I just called a friend at TNT, they aren't finding enough pilots either. And over there you can become captain with 1500hrs, so guess where they are going to start looking for new candidates.

It's going to be an interesting fall

zooloflyer · Post by **zooloflyer** » 05 Jul 2007, 10:41

flyavro - thanks for putting us back in reality...

the rest of this topic seems to be going nowhere - for one reason or another you always get the strangest theories flying around on forums

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 05 Jul 2007, 10:55

Furthermore, I don't know where you'll find those 4000h F/O, as there are only 10 Avro F/O left with more than 3500h... (yes I know, it would still mean five 2 F/O's crew , great!

)

fly · Post by **fly** » 05 Jul 2007, 11:05

90 was for the whole of Brussels airlines group..... (15 the last 2 weeks only and many more to come that I know of and SN doesn't)
2 fo's in one cockpit, not a solution as not only the BCAA should grant their OK but also the CAA's of all the countries they fly to and over.
To Flyforhours..... I will not tell you where I am going or who I am (I am not stupid) but lets say I was up for an upgrade soon (FO to capt)

And one last thing.... Brussels airlines is not that bad as a company, I enjoyed flying there etc but lets be honest what would you do if you would earn 3 times as much and fly nicer aircraft and have a better life.....

I wish all the best to Brussels airlines and their people working their, I hope your future is bright (and I am sure it will be).

cheers

Pikey · Post by **Pikey** » 05 Jul 2007, 13:53

Where are you going Fly? How many hours do you have?

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 05 Jul 2007, 16:37

Thanks flyavro for your interesting facts and figures.
The 2 F/O's was an idea, indeed far from being realised.(It's amazing how people can react, reminds the 50's, like when women started to wear mini-skirts...)

I got some numbers from a reliable source.
8 new F/O's start training every month, the training lasts approx. 2 months. Many F/O's are going to be upgraded (although I have no figures for that yet).

Economists say the market is booming and there is a great lack of pilots ahead with a top around 2009-2013. This is valid for the whole world with US, India and China being the core actors while Europe's needs will increase steadily. Africa has a great potential but the aviation industry over there will need more time to develop itself along with the economy.
The increase in the US is mostly to thank to the new generation of VLJ's (Very Light Jets) of which more than 8000 are on order for delivery in the next 6 years.

zooloflyer · Post by **zooloflyer** » 05 Jul 2007, 17:38

That's a fact - if you would get an offer from KLM or BA etc and BruAir would offer the same conditions - even then most people would leave for reasons of carreer, future etc I guess - I had this case before starting at BruAir - from airwork to line flying - they offered me the same conditions but the choice was easy...

I think the first companies that will get in trouble will be the taxi and airwork companies, also a big article on basic flight training instructors shortage in the last edition of Flight - challenging times ahead.

Pittsboy · Post by **Pittsboy** » 06 Jul 2007, 15:51

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:Bru.AIr management might sometimes show very weak moments but I am pretty sure they are doing something about it.
Alot of selections took place the last months and some candidates are still in the process.
Many fresh first officers will get a 50 days lasting training course starting from 30th July. That means that some first officers will be upgraded to a captain position very soon, as I have not heard about first officers leaving the company.

We have shifted from the Captain-First officer-Bord engineer system to the Captain-First officer system.

Maybe Bruair is to introduce a new era with a first officer on a left-hand seat on airline operations? Or are there "heavy" rules that restrict such operations that the CAA can't bend?
To me a crew formed of 2 first officers with 4000 hours on type each is as valuable as a captain with 7000 hours teaming with a new first-officer with only 1000 hours on type respectively.

I finally managed to recover from the laugh I had with this post...

Maybe you should do some reading on aircraft certification, crew licensing, authority gradients and aviation history as a whole and think before making these claims.

Captaincy is something that cannot be given to someone based solely on his experience. It is a long process that not only requires experience but also (and even a large portion) maturity. An airline captain is a manager of people, time, information and aircraft systems. That's not something you can just 'give' to an 'experienced' F/O solely because there's a need to.
If you claim that to you 2 4000hrs F/O's are as valuable as a 7000 hrs CPT and 1000 hrs F/O, then I would say that you haven't got the slightest clue of airline operations and that you haven't spent much time in a cockpit.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 06 Jul 2007, 21:20

Oh well I've seen first officers rank up to captain positions before they even reached 5000 hours.
It is as you say, a question of aircraft management.

In a few years, you might read your comment and laugh...
How do you think this industry is going to cope with the shortage of pilots? Commercial aviation movements will grow with 6% in average in the next 19 years says Boeing in their enconomical study. The number of trainees in the world is growing very slowly.
The airlines are starting to battle against eachother for the best pilots.

That's why more and more light jets are getting authorised for a one-crew operation.
Take the example of the Spectrum-33 which is as big as a Cessna Citation III. Well that new airplane is certified for 1 crew operations.

We are reaching a new golden age of aviation.

I've been in a cockpit a few times. I haven't noticed the captain doing much more than the 1st officer nor giving him orders all the time... Nowadays they decide together who will fly and who will monitor.(Except for Turkish airlines with their authoritary captains

)
When you have been flying for 4, 5 years you might have seen most of the situations. And even then, there is a check-list and routine for nearly every situation.

At Ryanair, F/O's with even less than 4 years of experience get upgrades.

Greets