KLM+Belgian airlines having difficult times finding pilots

FlyA330 · Post by **FlyA330** » 15 May 2007, 11:21

The situation at KLM is different. They are expanding like most airlines and they need pilots for this reason. Since almost all airlines are booming there is more demand than supply. Their salaries and working conditions are very good. Not many pilots are leaving KLM because they simply can't find better conditions. In Belgium pilots are leaving because they can find a better place to work with the result that they can't fill up the empty places!!

Mudvayne · Post by **Mudvayne** » 15 May 2007, 12:27

fcw wrote: And this profit will increase to 130 tot 140 mio this year which means that captains who are more than 3 years in the company will get a profit share BONUS equal to a YEAR salary of a BruAir capt...

fcw, if you don't know anything about these things, then don't post them...

A Captain will get after his 3rd year of service (after his 2nd actually) a 5% bonus of his basic salary if the company was on profit the previous financial year

Basic salary of a captain is 73,792 £ a year... so that makes 3689.6 £ or 5500 euros (before tax)... So if captains at Bru Air only earn 5500 euro
a year...

There are some share schemes as well, but that's something different...

Jazzy · Post by **Jazzy** » 15 May 2007, 13:01

Reading all the earlier posts I decided to ACT. I just contacted Stefaan Noreilde, a young senator from Ghent. He will get into the subject. :thumbsup2:

I've asked him to check if it's possible to put the training funding back on track like before 1994. I've sent him the link + additional information and I hope we can get this on the political agenda for the upcoming elections. If anyone knows a politician of any political colour please ask the same.

"vakbondsdelegés" have a stron g connection with politicians, for once they could lobby a bit too instead of their usual stuff

b-west · Post by **b-west** » 15 May 2007, 13:13

Jazzy wrote:Reading all the earlier posts I decided to ACT. I just contacted Stefaan Noreilde, a young senator from Ghent. He will get into the subject. :thumbsup2:

I've asked him to check if it's possible to put the training funding back on track like before 1994. I've sent him the link + additional information and I hope we can get this on the political agenda for the upcoming elections. If anyone knows a politician of any political colour please ask the same.

"vakbondsdelegés" have a stron g connection with politicians, for once they could lobby a bit too instead of their usual stuff

Well done... maybe more people should do this, with enough pressure from below, this point might be put on the political agenda... and maybe now is the time to do it, elections coming up and everybody is looking to "score".

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 15 May 2007, 15:40

Mudvayne wrote:
fcw wrote: And this profit will increase to 130 tot 140 mio this year which means that captains who are more than 3 years in the company will get a profit share BONUS equal to a YEAR salary of a BruAir capt...
fcw, if you don't know anything about these things, then don't post them...

A Captain will get after his 3rd year of service (after his 2nd actually) a 5% bonus of his basic salary if the company was on profit the previous financial year

Basic salary of a captain is 73,792 £ a year... so that makes 3689.6 £ or 5500 euros (before tax)... So if captains at Bru Air only earn 5500 euro
a year...

There are some share schemes as well, but that's something different...

Mudva,

My figures are correct, I am talking about the profitshare bonus, you are talking about the loyalty bonus. They will receive a bonus in case the full year profits goes up by 20ish %. About 7000 shares, so start calculating and don't mix € and £ like you did in your discussion with LX about the half year loss.

BrusselsAirlines · Post by **BrusselsAirlines** » 15 May 2007, 17:55

LG

And finally, the biggest loosers of all to feel really sorry about: the passengers. Some of them were blocked in Belgium with a useless ticket in hands, others were blocked overseas and had to pay for a hotel and for a return ticket elsewhere. None of the passengers have been refunded by the liquidator, as far as I know. The only passengers who have recovered something, were those pax who have bought their tickets through a VVR-agent (Association of Flemish Travel Agents).

LG, you must be joking man - I thought I was reading a post dated 2001 but hey, seems we're 2007!!!!!! Totally off topic!!

Bref - things are looking good for the active pilots in the coming years - lots of pensions to come, fleet expansions wherever you look (although limited for BA...) and a higher than ever entry price to get into the right seat.

Sounds like it is becoming a speciality job!
After years with our backs against the wall I think we all deserved some credit & respect.

Air2D2 · Post by **Air2D2** » 15 May 2007, 18:35

Good idea to get in touch with politicians about this situation.

Subsidizing training for pilots would (could) increase the number of interested candidates for becoming a pilot. The job should become "sexy" again, and not <fill in whatever negative word> - as the public opinion is starting to believe after e.g. social "problems" at Brussels Airlines. Off-topic, I know, but even add the Brussels Airport strike to that ; for the public opinion BA and BA and aviation 'tout court' are just one melting pot. What I mean : it might not surprise us that - apart from the financial point of view - a job in aviation also has an image problem => "no future".

That would be a (very) good start, subsidizing studies.

But this wouldn't solve the real problem this topic is about : pilots leaving Belgian airlines for foreign airlines (wether or not operating from Belgium). Making studies more affordable would not prevent pilots from taking the step to foreign airlines.

So, while contacting politicians, also mention that social security costs and the tax aspect should be leveled with other countries. Otherwise Belgium will remain a pool where good - very good - pilots are trained, after which they are pushed away because of social security and tax discrimination. We have to think about the future of pilots and other involved employees, indeed. But also about the future of our aviation related companies.

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 15 May 2007, 20:18

I totally agree with your comment about the studies Air2D2.. Something has to be done as it's very expensive to follow the training.

Air2D2 wrote: So, while contacting politicians, also mention that social security costs and the tax aspect should be leveled with other countries. Otherwise Belgium will remain a pool where good - very good - pilots are trained, after which they are pushed away because of social security and tax discrimination. We have to think about the future of pilots and other involved employees, indeed. But also about the future of our aviation related companies.

I'm sorry but I fully disagree with this statement. The taxes are very high for everyone not only for the pilots.. Leveling the taxes for the pilots and aviation related jobs is discriminating towards the other people working in this country. You guys are not the only ones who suffer from this problem. May I remind you that many sectors in Belgium have difficulties finding good qualified personel due to the same reasons. Why are so many scientists, engineers etc.. leaving the country ? For the same reason!!

If the government wants to tackle the problem they have to be equal and level ther taxes with europe for everyone.. I'm afraid it's not only an aviation related problem...

Airbuspilot · Post by **Airbuspilot** » 15 May 2007, 21:09

Avro,

I am not saying that you are wrong. You are right, social costs in belgiun are too high for everybody.

However we are talking about aviation in particular. Agreed, engineers and managers are facing the same problems , but nobody ever mentions them.

If a manager takes home 1.000.000 euro of salary its ok because he is holding a position with lots of responsability!!!!

In all honesty, and call me a selfish bastard, I do not give a damn anymore about the others and the salaries they are making! Our governement moulded me into an opportunist. I do not care about the social security or what is left over of it, I do not care about a legal pension. On the long run we are all going to have to pay for that ourselves.

So I am only fighting for the pilot community and myself. Belgian aviation either finds a way to raise the Belgian pilots net salary or people will continue to leave! And rightfully so.
Europe created the gateway to do this aswell.

So its up to the governement to adapt to a changing environment, and as somebody here before said it, they squeezed us long enough, or to go bankrupt themselves.

Lets face it. A belgian pilot who pays only 20% taxes on his salary is still better than a pilot who pays nothing because he is working ( note...NOT living) abroad!

On top of that, the legal solution for this problem exists. The luxemburg scenario is legal and acceptable to the european union ( they did it with the Belgian fleet of ships as well remember). The political WILL to do it just is not there because aviation still is a huge cash cow for the governement!

And if other sectors of the industry want to have the same thing, they better start fighting for it!

Just one more things....It takes balls to pake your things ( including your family) and go and live abroad...not many people have the guts to do that so dont worry, Belgium still will have people to support it!

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 15 May 2007, 21:16

BrusselsAirlines wrote:
And finally, the biggest loosers of all to feel really sorry about: the passengers. Some of them were blocked in Belgium with a useless ticket in hands, others were blocked overseas and had to pay for a hotel and for a return ticket elsewhere. None of the passengers have been refunded by the liquidator, as far as I know.
LG, you must be joking man - I thought I was reading a post dated 2001 but hey, seems we're 2007!!!!!! Totally off topic!!

I was reacting to a recent post in this topic in which the bankrupcty of Sabena was called clean. So why is only my reply off topic?

But actually, it's not off topic ! You can try to forget about 2001, but politicians don't. The SN-bankruptcy from 2001 makes it difficult for the 2007-politicians to do something special for the aviation industry. The public (= those who are voting for them) will not accept another investment in a branch with good to high salaries, just to please one select group - specially not if it's that group announces that more will not be enough.

Like Avro just said: the high salary costs are a general problem.

But still: the government can do something if they want: they have reduced taxes and social security charges for soccer players, to allow Belgian clubs to keep their best players here. And they have introduced a reduced tax regime for ... themselves.

BrusselsAirlines · Post by **BrusselsAirlines** » 15 May 2007, 21:46

You have a point there - it is true that if the chemical companies reunite themselves to ring the alarmbel, or the syndicate of the medical profession - the audience is listening. But hey, these people represent a group of 10.000+ members and powerful companies behind them.

I am glad to see activity at the top of our companies as AGAIN today in the news with BATA as a few hundred pilots will indeed not make the difference...

Votes count...and I guess more people have concern about their night rest than about their vacation flight departing out of Zaventem, Liege or even Amsterdam.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 15 May 2007, 22:23

But this wouldn't solve the real problem this topic is about : pilots leaving Belgian airlines for foreign airlines (wether or not operating from Belgium). Making studies more affordable would not prevent pilots from taking the step to foreign airlines.

Foreign airlines have too high requirements for a student graduated from a Belgian flight school to meet them and to get hired.

-At Ryanair you need 500 hours on type (737) at least.
-For Netjets you ought to have more.
-Jetair has requirements of 4000 hours Total-Time (check bruss.airport/jobs)
-KLM first takes students graduating from KLS (KLM ACADEMY) but in the first year they work as bord-engineer on long-haul 747's as ab-initio's.
-Air France recruits in France exclusively for starters as they have their subsidised courses over there.
-Jet Airways that will be coming to BRU, will have high requirements that are for us impossible to meet as starters.
-Lufthansa has its own academy and German students have the full priority.

Time after time, SN hires one of our students. And although we know we will not be payed alot in the beginning we are happy to get this chance and are thankful for it.
We though will not bother if they pay us more when we reach anciennity, as our level of experience will be important and we will offer good quality.

As pilots in training, we know that our only chances are at TNT, Brussels Airlines, other Belgian carriers, because a flight hour costs at least 110€ VAT incl. in Belgium. To get hired with Jetair you can spend at least 440.000€...
The other option is to become instructor...

regards

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 15 May 2007, 23:11

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:
But this wouldn't solve the real problem this topic is about : pilots leaving Belgian airlines for foreign airlines (wether or not operating from Belgium). Making studies more affordable would not prevent pilots from taking the step to foreign airlines.
Foreign airlines have too high requirements for a student graduated from a Belgian flight school to meet them and to get hired.

There is no shortage of cadets, but of experienced pilots. The best example is the UK: lots of low hours pilots are unemployed whilst lots of foreigners with experience take the well paid jobs.
Unfortunately for he young guys, as it makes them vulnerable and frustrated after spending a lot of money...

1V1 · Post by **1V1** » 16 May 2007, 07:10

That is correct, companies are hiring the most experienced pilots first. And they are paid as in the good old days. But that means that smaller companies have to upgrade faster and at the bottom take ab-initio's. I'm afraid that the larger companies will not leave much room for small operators. This is also one of the reasons why Belgian pilots leave Belgium. One must admit the aviation future in Belgium doesn't look too bright. You've got to surf the wave when it passes. If Ba pilots had another rating than the Bae I bet a lot more had already left the company.

If there is one group of people who fully understood the advantage of globalisation, it is the pilot society. Like Airbuspilot said first they were forced to leave, then they saw the advantages and now they use the system in their advantage and nobody can stop it because it is fully legal.

Even if the schools were for free it would not make much difference because it takes quite some years to form a captain. I see young captains and even experienced FO's that could upgrade leave Belgium because large companies attract them with better pay but also because of the jobstability and good pension funds.

see u

b-west · Post by **b-west** » 16 May 2007, 09:25

As also reported in "Latest News", the Belgian press appears to have picked up the news of the difficulties in employment. Last night there was an item on it in the VRT TV news, they talked about it during the midday-news programme on radio1 and this morning a small article appeared in "De Standaard"'s economical pages. Lets just hope that the Belgian airlines can take advantage of this, albeit rather minor, media attention, to keep the pressure on the lid with the politicians.

Johan23 · Post by **Johan23** » 16 May 2007, 10:28

And what about the people who paid their training completely? Will they be refunded??? I worked 4 years at night in combination with my training, those were 4 hard years I can assure you. If you manage to do a job while you are in training it is not impossible believe me. I agree that it is ridiculous we have to pay 21% of taxes on top of it all, a good start would be to get rid off that...

Cheers

backtrack320 · Post by **backtrack320** » 16 May 2007, 11:34

fly4hours, Jetair is till looking for ab-initio pilots, the first possibility by paying your own rating or by starting as a dispatcher.

I've been watching the news yesterday evening on tv1 and vtm, and I felt bad seeing the faces -now in their role as a spokesman for BATA- complaining so many pilots are leaving their companies.

Don't make me laugh, these were the same people who decided to offer "take it or leave it, you should be grateful we offer you a pilot job in Belgium"-contracts.
Except BA, they followed the example of LCC's to make money on young people paying for their own rating as well.
Now they face the consequences of their own decisions.
It's impossible to compare off-shore salaries with net salaries in Belgium, but still, blaming the high cost of taxes and social security in Belgium of pilots leaving their companies is dishonest.

FlyA330 · Post by **FlyA330** » 16 May 2007, 13:02

It's impossible to compare off-shore salaries with net salaries in Belgium, but still, blaming the high cost of taxes and social security in Belgium of pilots leaving their companies is dishonest.

But that is just not the case. When we are speaking about earning double of the Belgian salary, we are speaking about an offical salary after paying tax and social security. This is not at all off-shore!! What they are doing in the Emirates or other far-away country, that's different, but at NetJets, Ryanair, EasyJet,... everything is 100% official.

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 16 May 2007, 13:20

Saw a BruAir manager on VTM yesterday insinuating this offshore operation as well.

Shame on him. It is not the difference betwen 30 and 50% tax which makes a double salary. If they just paid the same gross salary more than half of the leavers would stay. The tax difference already existed in the Sabena period, but as the gross salaries were the same as abroad almost nobody left.

Post by **sn26567** » 16 May 2007, 13:57

Airbuspilot wrote:On top of that, the legal solution for this problem exists. The Luxemburg scenario is legal and acceptable to the European Union (they did it with the Belgian fleet of ships as well remember).

Swissair wanted also to expatriate its Sabena pilots to either Luxembourg or Switzerland, but the government (shareholder at 51%) refused for Sabena what it had accepted for the ship companies, CMB in this particular case.

You speak of two standards?