Airbus New A350 Closes Gap With Boeing, Emirates Says

A350XWB · Post by **A350XWB** » 12 Apr 2007, 05:41

tim clark : ``There was a canyon'' between the Boeing Co. 787 and the Airbus A350, President Tim Clark said in an interview yesterday after reviewing the plane's design at the planemaker's Toulouse, France base. ``That gap has closed. Airbus listened.''

A380 : ``I think it's going to be a real world beater,'' Clark said. ``There's not going to be a lot that's going to touch it.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... cZoNE0nreY

DFW · Post by **DFW** » 12 Apr 2007, 05:54

I wish Tim Clark would stop wondering out loud so often. It seems like every month that he says something just to keep Airbus or Boeing attentive to his whims. If he's so impressed, he needs to stop playing games and just buy the darn thing.

RC20 · Post by **RC20** » 12 Apr 2007, 05:59

There is a lot of self serving in that statement.

Pretty hard to convince me they are that close. One is in production, the other is still on the drawing boards, and (my opinion) a technically iffy proposition with panels over aluminum frame. No one has ever done that. There have been a number of all composite aircraft (not as large as the 787, the V22 would be the next one).

Boeing repeatedly has gone to more expensive metals to avoid the aluminum composite interface chemical interaction issue.

The statement frorm the same guy who was (and probably still is) pushing for an all composite A350.

Funny how when you are ready to buy, how competitive the other product becomes, no mater how much you bad mouthed it before (or were insulted by their people who blamed you for the problems and or didn’t tell you about delivery delays)

TexasGuy · Post by **TexasGuy** » 12 Apr 2007, 06:18

DFW wrote:I wish Tim Clark would stop wondering out loud so often. It seems like every month that he says something just to keep Airbus or Boeing attentive to his whims. If he's so impressed, he needs to stop playing games and just buy the darn thing.

Tim Clark is an idiot. He continues with this crap every so many weeks. He has more sides than a hexagon.

CX · Post by CX » 12 Apr 2007, 07:01

Thought the guy would only bash the A380 and get a handful of free XWBs...

Ziplepingouin · Post by **Ziplepingouin** » 12 Apr 2007, 10:22

Its quite normal journalists always ask questions about their future orders because Emirates is a big carrier.

After all, he did not make a press release, just answer jourlalists questions! We can't ask him to stop do interviews!!!

smokejumper · Post by **smokejumper** » 12 Apr 2007, 13:59

A potential order for 100 planes certainly opens eyes and sharpens pencils! However, Tim Clark's regular poppy-cock statements appear to be either 1) a ploy to get better prices or, 2) designed to keep his name (and ego) in the news.

Airbus has an engineering design concept to sell (detailed design is only at the starting line) while Boeing has an almost ready to roll-out plane. By now, Boeing has an excellent idea of the weights and manufacturing processes involved, and can make solid promises to customers.

Airbus' A350XWB design, on the other hand, has no metal cut, nor a true estimate of the final all-up weights. Yes, they have engineeering calculations and projections, but no large-scale parts to weigh.

Also, Airbus' composite-on-aluminum construction has not been tried on a large scale, although they have most certainly done smaller fabrication and tests.

What will be the long-term experiences with composite-over-aluminum frame construction when used as a structural element? Certainly, Airbus has studied this, but how will the planes stand up long term?

I am sure that Airbus will have a viable product in the end (2013-14 or 15?), but right now they only have concepts to sell.

smokejumper · Post by **smokejumper** » 12 Apr 2007, 15:18

The April 11 installment of Randy's Journal discusses Market Timing. See:

http://boeingblogs.com/randy/

Admittedly, this is a Boeing employees' take on things, but it provides a knowledgeable viewpoint.

David747 · Post by **David747** » 12 Apr 2007, 22:11

A350 might be closing the gap, but in the end, Boeing will have a lead in this market for years to come. Today, Boeing posted 30 more unidentified Dreamliner customers. If things keep going the way they are for Boeing, we could see the Dreamliner shatter the 737NG orders before first flight and delivery.

smokejumper · Post by **smokejumper** » 13 Apr 2007, 20:52

The cat fight between the A-350XWB and the B-787 for sales has other aspects to projected delivery dates that need to be considered. Boeing’s 787 assembly line appears to be sold out through 2013 (although I am sure that there are spots reserved for an important customer, if needed). The A-350XWB will start delivery in 2013 (or will it be 2014?). By then, Boeing will have made improvements to the 787 which will add value to the plane.

It should be noted that Finn Air ordered their planes for delivery after the initial 30 planes are produced; they do not want early production models with the attendant problems. Rather, they want developed models that do not need updating to resolve issues. When the first A-350XWB is delivered, Boeing will have been producing 787’s for 5 years and be well-down the learning curve. Improvements will have been introduced reflecting operational lessons.

There is no need to reiterate that Airbus must get the A-35XWB right early on, otherwise they will be left in the dust.

Berova · Post by **Berova** » 14 Apr 2007, 04:06

Being at least five years behind, Airbus has already been in the dust wrt that cat fight.

David747 · Post by **David747** » 15 Apr 2007, 22:41

Emirates might reward Airbus at the Paris Airshow in the summer with a large order for A350's. Maybe 100 A350-1000's if it does happen. What do you people think?

boomer535 · Post by **boomer535** » 15 Apr 2007, 23:43

I think it will be hard for Airbus to deliver on its promises. I can't see the hybrid panel on frame fuselage being as light or as easy to maintain as the one piece barrels on the 787. I can't see the engines that use bleed air will be more efficient then the bleedless engines on the 787. The A350 will enter service about 5 years after the 787, it should be a better AC. But I don't see any new technology in the A350 that could make it better then the 787. On the other hand Airbus makes some fine AC, the A320 and A330 are first rate. They could very well pull it off. I think the A350 will get its share of orders because 787 production is booked up pretty much until the A350 enters service, not because its better.

smokejumper · Post by **smokejumper** » 15 Apr 2007, 23:51

Tim Clark has said "The gap has closed." What do these words mean?

Do they mean that the gap has totally closed and there are no differences between the competing planes OR, do they mean the gap has closed so it is not as large before?

DFW · Post by **DFW** » 16 Apr 2007, 00:23

David747 wrote:Emirates might reward Airbus at the Paris Airshow in the summer with a large order for A350's. Maybe 100 A350-1000's if it does happen. What do you people think?

The A350 will not be as efficient on fuel burn as the 787. Wound barrel sections will always be lighter than composite panels on aluminum frame.

Clark is no fool. He wants either (1) a phenomenal discount on A350's to make up for the fuel burn factor or (2) a good discount from Boeing to prevent him from buying A350's.

It's too early in the design of the A350 for Airbus to make guarantees in the range sufficient for Clark to make a decision. For that reason, he'll continue to bait Airbus but not make a purchase decision until he likes the guaranteed numbers.

David747 · Post by **David747** » 16 Apr 2007, 03:38

Clark is probably trying to get a discount from Airbus. Yet I don't see Emirates ordering the 787, even the 787-10 which has been proposed by Boeing, it seems is not big enough for Emirates specifications. With the fuel burn issue, I think time will tell to see what plane has a better fuel burn IMO.

achace · Post by **achace** » 16 Apr 2007, 08:25

Clark is a bit of an enigma.
Two months ago, he said the A380 was going to cost them a fortune because of weight, now in this latest interview he is saying there is nothing to touch it!

Cannot see him buying the 787-1000 because it doesnt have enough range.

I think he asked for an airplane with 787 capacity and -900 range. The -1000 range has been reduced.

IMO it will be the 350XWB.

Its about time Airbus dropped the XWB part, it is cumbersome to we forum contributors.

Cheers
Achace

chunk · Post by **chunk** » 16 Apr 2007, 11:53

David747 wrote:A350 might be closing the gap, but in the end, Boeing will have a lead in this market for years to come. Today, Boeing posted 30 more unidentified Dreamliner customers. If things keep going the way they are for Boeing, we could see the Dreamliner shatter the 737NG orders before first flight and delivery.

Whilst this is certainly true, needn't be a problem for Airbus. The 330 is still selling well despite 787 - partly due to lack of availability but also I suspect because the 330 is proven to be a fantastic, highly efficient aircraft that can undertake a wide range of missions. Those buying 330's now are prime 350 candidates in 10 years time when the bugs that always appear in early models have been flushed out. The 787 will also have those bugs of course.

boomer535 · Post by **boomer535** » 16 Apr 2007, 14:16

I think Clark may have gotten a great deal from Airbus on the A350 as compensation for the A380 fiasco. This is why he changed his tune on the A380 and A350. Clark and Airbus might just anounce a big order during the Paris Airshow. I would not be suprised at all to see the A350 rack up a few hundred orders this year. The biggest thing for Airbus ia that the A350 must be as promised and on time. They just can't afford another A380 type fiasco. It goes without saying that Boeing has to deliver on the 787 too.

smokejumper · Post by **smokejumper** » 16 Apr 2007, 16:14

As Boomer535 has stated above, both the A350XWB (a cumbersome name) and the B787 must be delivered on time and meet all performance expectations.

Boeing is MUCH closer to this goal and we will soon know the B787’s status. All major design work is done, manufacturing capability has been established, assembly is currently underway and, roll-out has been announced (July 8, 2007). Flight testing will start this year. Because they are so far along and by now know the weight of the various components, excellent performance predictions can be guaranteed. Also, Boeing can guarantee delivery dates and sooner delivery (remember, there are slots reserved for major potential customers.

As to The Airbus A350, much is very uncertain. The design has not been finalized, only the preliminary studies and, we are not yet certain of the roll-out date, nor the first flight (at least 5 years away). Airbus is at the same point that Boeing was in 2002. So, Airbus is selling a paper / rubber airplane; if someone wants a significant change, it can still be made, although any major changes will further reduce Airbus' credibility.

Additionally (in my opinion), Airbus' decision to use composite panels over a conventional aluminum frame construction will probably result in a heavier airplane, which will adversely affect fuel efficiency and increase maintenance costs (more corrosion inspections and repair costs).

Airbus CAN however, compete on price. Since they are not absolutely certain of the A350's final performance (only engineering estimates and paper studies exist today), Airbus can only compete on price. If Airbus offers an attractive enough price to offset higher (IMO) fuel and maintenance costs, they will sell planes to airlines wanting either (1) a 777 size plane, or (2) a less efficient plane (larger planes cost more to operate) than the 787 whose acquisition price is low enough to offset increased operational costs. This is probably how they have interested Emirates and possibly US Air.