SN Brussels Airlines and Virgin Express going together

[BrightCedars]

I can't believe all this crap about unions this and unions that and my little advantage and your little advantage. These people don't care about the prospect of having a decent offering on the Belgian market. Despite the Sabena, Sobelair, CityBird and other failures, they have kept the same donkey-style mindset.

I say let the management just shutdown operations at both airlines and restart a new operation under their conditions with whoever is interested.

I'm not expecting anything spectacular from these companies anyway. A business that's not expending is retracting and they are retracting in full swing. An airline's fleet that getting older and older by the day without any renewal strategy or financial means to do so is bound for failure.

It's time to either turn off life support on this one or give it the real means to do something.

[zooloflyer]

I wouldn't start to panick too soon - the new management team will start as from January 1st 2007 under new CEO Vandeputte (ex-proximus) and Weber (ex TCAB)

Sounds logic to me that the management first needs to be settled before the real action is going to take place - I think they messed up with the CEO changes over the last year(s) and I don't think that these new shots would make these career changes without ambition!

As from 2007 they will have a quite dynamic & ambitious management team!

Downside is that fi Weber hasn't been really popular with TCAB crews as he was very famous for cutting costs, night stops, max efficiency etc.

To be continued...

[tolipanebas]

I can't believe all this crap about unions this and unions that and my little advantage and your little advantage. These people don't care about the prospect of having a decent offering on the Belgian market.

It is not about 'little advantages' like who may spend the afternoon under the Spanish sun or who gets to go to the beach in Dakar; it is about what people untimately come to work for: MONEY.

Did you know almost half of the income at SN is made up of variable premiums depending on the number of flights flown, the number of nightstops and also the network you fly on? I think it is only logic that when people at SN hear talk of 'reducing the number of nightstops, having VEX operate some of 'our' flights or VEX crew flying on 'our' A330s, they make a quick calculation and say: Hey, that's going to cost me at least 250 euro a MONTH! And there is no compensation forseen!

Maybe 3,000 euro a year doesn't mean a lot to you, but I can assure you to many people it equals about their annual savings.... Take that off them, and they have a tough time making ends meat.

[b720]

Both are right am afraid...but the problem is that there are airlines out there that are able to provide the same services (flying us from point A to point B) for much less.. Like some "mainstream" airlines are adopting lcc features ..i think (sadly) that mainstream crew will have to adopt LCC employment practices (longer hours, more duties like cleaning etc, less pay). We all have to admit that flying flagship airlines is not the same today as it was 15 or 20 years ago..Tickets were expensive compared to today making it possible for airlines to pamper their passengers and to provide well for their crew and other employees..times are changing and we all have to make do with less, passengers and crew alike..

[TWA]

="tolipanebas
It is not about 'little advantages' like who may spend the afternoon under the Spanish sun or who gets to go to the beach in Dakar; it is about what people untimately come to work for: MONEY.

Did you know almost half of the income at SN is made up of variable premiums depending on the number of flights flown, the number of nightstops and also the network you fly on? I think it is only logic that when people at SN hear talk of 'reducing the number of nightstops, having VEX operate some of 'our' flights or VEX crew flying on 'our' A330s, they make a quick calculation and say: Hey, that's going to cost me at least 250 euro a MONTH! And there is no compensation forseen!

Maybe 3,000 euro a year doesn't mean a lot to you, but I can assure you to many people it equals about their annual savings.... Take that off them, and they have a tough time making ends meat.

This is really crazy, virgin cabin staff are numbered around 200 only, if the new company is going to take extra long haul aircraft, they will need at least some extra 200 cabin attendants. I don't understand what all the fuss is about. So these people will NOT reduce your payslip at all.

[tolipanebas]

Correct: one needs to adapt to todays market, but I think we can all agree the best way forward for this company would be to EXPAND where it is profitable, notably long haul (African) operations rather than to overly concentrate their attention and energy on the highly competitive intra-European market.

In this perspective, it is dubious to say the least what can be the positive outcome for SN from a merger with a structurally loss making airline like VEX which is focussed solely on European destinations (most of which are already served by SN today), other than yet another oportunity for a round of cost savings on the back of the staff.

What SN needs is not a merger with VEX or any other airline, what it needs is a serious investor, willing to fund a controlled growth (notably intercontinental) of the airline.

[b720]

I fly with both SN and Virgin almost on a weekly basis.. I have to say that my SN flight almost NEVER left on time..a european flight delayed for 30 minutes is the norm on SN..this rarely happens with Virgin.. example flights from GVA to BRU morning flights until last year both departed GVA at 08:50 .. ALWAYS Virgin was on the runway at 09:00 while the poor SN passengers are just boarding...bottom line as a passenger (don't forget that passengers are clients) punctuality is by far much more important than food offered onboard or the colgate smiles of the lovely crew...
The merger:
I personally think that the African network must expand and service must be even further improved..making the new airline truly the best serving Africa from europe.. as for the european network..Business class must remain but enlarged..prices brought down to current SN flexible economy fares..service on the new business must remain same as or even improved to current SN business including privilege miles..while the new economy should reflect Virgin cabin..limited seat pitch..meals against payment NO MILES to collect nor spend .. checked luggage against payment like ryan air etc..for rock bottom prices ... basically a client pays to be flown from point A to point B safely and on time..nothing more nor less..client has more needs will choose for the "new" business...European business fares should not be more than 300 euro per one way taxes excl. if booked in advance..maybe half of the cabin can be sold as this new business...

[sn-remember]

Correct: one needs to adapt to todays market, but I think we can all agree the best way forward for this company would be to EXPAND where it is profitable, notably long haul (African) operations rather than to overly concentrate their attention and energy on the highly competitive intra-European market..

Right, it is a well known fact. .. and a huge management error as I keep repeating now and then

What SN needs is not a merger with VEX or any other airline, what it needs is a serious investor, willing to fund a controlled growth (notably intercontinental) of the airline.

As everybody knows, there are 2 lines of product (at least) in the current airlines market:
1. the traditional multi-class diversification.
2. the Low cost , no frills etc..

The fact that the SN management is interested in both sectors is sound at first glance because I believe the 2nd sector is far from having reached saturation point. Moreover BRU badly lacks Low Cost ops.

However imho the 2nd sector should not be limited to short/hauls . Lets reposition the ex-VEX activites in a broader scheme encompassing long/hauls flights as well for instance to the US (following the EI and AC models a/o).

This new VEX (let's call it Sabena-Blue because "blue" is fashionable ;o) could align its user services on the one prevailing at the american JetBlue (B6) and the 2 operators could even find ways to cooperate on a number of fields such as terminal or computer system sharing (I reckon I could be dreaming a bit here no ? )
IMHO the obvious destinations to start with would be JFK, BOS, IAD as these are among B6 main hubs. However I am sure there is place for this type of operation on some african or asian routes also.

Concerning the first sector it is obvious that the l/h market is also far from saturated at BRU . A revamped Brussels-Airlines (let's call it Sabena-Brussels) could align its user services on the ones prevailing at Austrian (OS) for instance.
Obvious destinations would be Africa where ops should be restored to 7 daily l/H and possibly the US or/and Asia. On the US market, some destinations such as JFK, ORD or MIA could better be considered within a partnership with AA (although not abolutely mandatory).

This is the way I could imagine a rebirth of the belgian air business.
Of course as you rightly put it Tolipanebas, some investors need to be persuaded into this business.
But if they could be found in Vienna or Dublin or in every big or tiny place where an airline is developing, why not in Brussels ?

Kind regards
Christophe

[Atlantis]

I was one of them who always asked why SNBA not expanded. But maybe we have to say or ask do they have the ambition to expand? What I have understood in the last couple of years is that there is a problem with the shareholders. They don't want to give money for aircrafts or expand the network, etc. IMO it was wrong to spend out profit to the employees. The holding could use that for other projects. We can read now that the staff is not satisfy and there is fear. You can not solve that with money in the beginning of the year.

Or is the holding satisfy with some millions profit a year with only 14 African destinations and a European market?

And what is the job of the government? They are partly involved in all those things.

If this will be the role of the homecarrier than we have to admid that this will be a small carrier.
In that way it would be an opportunity for BIAC, Brussels Airport, to look out for a big carrier who wants to make from BRU a big satellite to serve the rest of the world. If SNBA/VEX coudn't do that, an other could take that chance.

[sn-remember]

...In that way it would be an opportunity for BIAC, Brussels Airport, to look out for a big carrier who wants to make from BRU a big satellite to serve the rest of the world. If SNBA/VEX coudn't do that, an other could take that chance.

There is no "golden" opportunity waiting in BRU ...here no more than anywhere else !
And there is no SantaKlaus coming in with pockets full of presents

There is just a fierce battle being fought in order to retain or regain some market share in the world air transport business. And this battle being improperly conducted at SN side, again there will be no miracle regarding the issue.

If the first line actors at the helm of the flag carrier are unable to find the human and financial means to gain some points in this battle, who will ?

They have to prove out at the face of the world that the place of BRU can be a promising investment center that's all.

[Atlantis]

...In that way it would be an opportunity for BIAC, Brussels Airport, to look out for a big carrier who wants to make from BRU a big satellite to serve the rest of the world. If SNBA/VEX coudn't do that, an other could take that chance.

There is no "golden" opportunity waiting in BRU ...here no more than anywhere else !
And there is no SantaKlaus coming in with pockets full of presents

There is just a fierce battle being fought in order to retain or regain some market share in the world air transport business. And this battle being improperly conducted at SN side, again there will be no miracle regarding the issue.

How in the world could they at this time or future retain some market share?????? The competition intra-Europe and now also extra-Europe is way to strong for SNBA. They have some good lines but that's all, the rest is virtual.

[BrightCedars]

Maybe 3,000 euro a year doesn't mean a lot to you, but I can assure you to many people it equals about their annual savings.... Take that off them, and they have a tough time making ends meat.

Mind you, 3,000 EUR/annum would mean a lot to me. What I mean is that in this case the VEX people will be lifted let's say 125 EUR more a month and the SN people will have to make a cut of 125 EUR a month (I don't know the headcounts but I assume there are less VEX than SN so it would be even less dramatic). I know it's not fair but unless that company has money to put everyone at SN level (and probably then lose even more competitive edge), the better alternative is to give an equivalent share of the cake to everyone. And if indeed this cannot go thru with everybody's hearts, so long with those ones.

[Qwerty]

It there already something more known about the flights? I've booked a flight with Virgin Express for 5 june 2007 tot Rome FCO. I've also booked a resvered seat in the 733. Does anyone know how the merge will effect this? Cause I like to know if I'm having te seat I booked in the same plane and so on (I assume I have) and about the times.

Thanks...

[Atlantis]

It there already something more known about the flights? I've booked a flight with Virgin Express for 5 june 2007 tot Rome FCO. I've also booked a resvered seat in the 733. Does anyone know how the merge will effect this? Cause I like to know if I'm having te seat I booked in the same plane and so on (I assume I have) and about the times.

Thanks...

Why don't you ask it the company itselfs? You have paid for your ticket so they have to give you the service of information.

Here you can get no information, wrong information or something between those two. There are only some few people on this forum who work for SNBA or Virgin. So if they don't give you the info, contact the customer service.

[OOVEX]

You probably will fly on 737 aircraft, however situation might still change.
Fleet utilisation can even change on short notice. Currently this flight is still operated by Vex.

[Atlantis]

Its now official: the new name will go public on 7 November.

There will be, off course, also a new inflight magazine. The English company who made this magazine can't say anything till that date. The launch date of this new magazine is December.

[Avro]

Its now official: the new name will go public on 7 November.

Did they chose this date on prupose ? IIRC that's the date where Sabena went bankrupt in 2001 wasn't it ?

Chris

[Zorba]

Its now official: the new name will go public on 7 November.

Did they chose this date on prupose ? IIRC that's the date where Sabena went bankrupt in 2001 wasn't it ?

Hmm, I think the link would be too obvious. Or maybe they want to make it look obvious. Don't know I think they just want to give me a nice birthday present God I hope it will be Sabena

[Atlantis]

Its now official: the new name will go public on 7 November.

Did they chose this date on prupose ? IIRC that's the date where Sabena went bankrupt in 2001 wasn't it ?

Chris

Indeed, on the "birthday" of the bankrupty of Sabena they will announce the new name. According to De Tijd two names are still possible: Brussels Airlines or SABENA. But I have a very strong feeling that it will be Brussels Airlines refering to the new name of the airport: Brussels Airport.

[TWA]

Brussels Airlines, I hear this name more and louder every day at work.
Are they still going to call it Sabena in Africa then?