We want to fly from Poznan!

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starosta
Posts: 35
Joined: 17 Jun 2006, 00:00
Location: Poznan, Poland
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We want to fly from Poznan!

Post by starosta »

Hello :D

It is my first post on this Forum ever!

I would like to present campaign "We want to fly from Poznan!"
Together with friends from an investment forum - www.skyscrapercity.com - those coming from Poznan, we have started action which task is to push presure on our local authorities to make them more concerned about the development of Poznan Airport. We want also to show public demand - that people are interested in flying from/to Poznan.

Poznan is the 5th largest city of Poland with 570.000 inhabitants (830.000 in aglomeration). Its location is perfect when talking about travelling to other parts of the country - in the middle of western Poland. You have easy acces to other cities like: Bydgoszcz, Torun, Lodz, Szczecin, Wroclaw and Warsaw as well. More than 3,4 milion people living in the distance of 100 km from airport (about 7,8 mln in the distance of 150 km) and we still don't see big development in terms of new direct connections. You have to know that the city is quite rich (for example unemployment rate is 6% (average for Poland - 17%)) and is one of top touristic destiantions of the country. City of monuments, history (together with neighbouring Gniezno was the first capital of Poland in 10th century), business and international fairs.

Regarding those facts we just don't understand why we can fly from Poznan directly only to 11 cities of Europe. There are many issues that make development of our airport relatively small. We would like to deal with these problems and make the situation better, even if our decision-makers don't feel/realise the situation.

Campaign was started on 22 of April and we already have like 4000 petitions from Poznan, region of Wielkopolska and European countries - Belgium, United Kingdom, Italy and Germany.

We have prepared 2 web pages - one of them in Polish:
www.chcemylatac.prv.pl

second one in 18 languages! (we want to have 24) :
www.flytopoznan.com
www.flytopoland.com

If You find this campaign atractive please support us!
More information on page:

www.flytopoznan.com

Thank You :)

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Vinnie-Winnie
Posts: 955
Joined: 01 Jul 2004, 00:00
Location: London

Post by Vinnie-Winnie »

Welcome on Luchtzak!

Wow amazing campaign! Why are you actually doing this? What outcome do you expect from your campaign?

If you are succesful might start my own campaign called "bring Easyjet and Air Berlin to BRU"!

b720
Posts: 908
Joined: 04 May 2006, 00:00

industry

Post by b720 »

welcome to the forum, great to hear from people everywhere.
Little remark about your campaign though. keep in mind that avaition is an industry where money is made or lost. The reason you have direct flights to only 11 european cities is probably because there are not enough passengers for the 12th destination. Poland is a member of the EU now, so the industry is deregulated. If there is money to be made in Poznan, airlines would have floked in. With all due respect they are not waiting for your campain to make a buck.
ragrads

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earthman
Posts: 2221
Joined: 24 Nov 2004, 00:00
Location: AMS

Post by earthman »

Sky Europe announced a route from POZ (is that the right code?) to AMS, my mother bought an AMS-POZ-AMS ticket, and of course the route got axed before any plane had even flown.

Warsaw, Szczecin, Łódź, Szczecin and Wrocław all have their own airports, besides, 'easy access' to those cities from Poznań is a bit of an overstatement. Like Brussels has easy acces to Amsterdam. Sure you can get there, but why would you go through Poznań? Besides, if you consider Warsaw easy to reach, you can fly from there. In fact, Berlin is closer, and also has good (excellent?) connections to various places. The easier these two places become to reach, the less reason airlines have to start flying to Poznań.

There are four daily flights to WAW by LOT, with onward connections to many other places. There are also four daily connections to Munich, by LOT and Lufthansa, and two daily connections to Frankfurt, by LOT. Yes it costs a lot, but if you need to get somewhere, you can. There are LCC flights to London and Dublin, which are the main LCC destinations people fly to from Poland anyway, it seems.

Germany is close enough that people will travel there by other means, although there are flights to several German cities (anyone ever heard of Dau Air? Who are they?).

The fact that there is only 6% unemployment would actually reduce the need for travel, since less people will be traveling to, say, the UK for work.

What you really would need to get going is to advertise Poznań as a tourist destination. Right now, I suppose most tourists will go to Kraków, after all, who has heard of Poznań? (Besides it getting mentioned on every AMS-WAW flight with KLM by the pilots).

It's nice that you get people to sign a petition, but the fact that Sky Europe axed a route even before they started flying would indicate that not many people actually bought tickets.

starosta
Posts: 35
Joined: 17 Jun 2006, 00:00
Location: Poznan, Poland
Contact:

Post by starosta »

earthman wrote:Sky Europe announced a route from POZ (is that the right code?) to AMS, my mother bought an AMS-POZ-AMS ticket, and of course the route got axed before any plane had even flown.
the story with Sky Europe was a little bit different... I'm not sure if You know that they've deceided to open new "hub" in Prague. So they have cancelled few newly opened routes - also this one from Poznan to Amsterdam. They have cancelled 3 routes from Krakow and one from Warsaw as well.
During our campaign we have had a meeting with person from Sky Europe and we know that possiblity they've received (to open Prague) was so atractive for them, so that they have changed plans imiedately.
earthman wrote:Warsaw, Szczecin, Łódź, Szczecin and Wrocław all have their own airports, besides, 'easy access' to those cities from Poznań is a bit of an overstatement. Like Brussels has easy acces to Amsterdam. Sure you can get there, but why would you go through Poznań? Besides, if you consider Warsaw easy to reach, you can fly from there. In fact, Berlin is closer, and also has good (excellent?) connections to various places. The easier these two places become to reach, the less reason airlines have to start flying to Poznań.
Of course that they have their own airports and I wish all of them good and satisfaying connections with European cities! But also Poznan has its own airport so why our citizens have to travel to Berlin or Warsaw? Why should they pay for car or train and loose few hours of their lifes just for a travel to airport which is like 270 km away?

What I've mentioned about the location of Poznan - it is/might be another strong point of the airport - being located between other cities which doesn't have sufificient number of connections, Poznan can be more atractive for air companies. They can use not only the potential of inhabitants of region and the city but also neighbouring areas! For example - if You consider that travel distance with train to Poznan is 2 h from Wroclaw, 2h 15 from Szczecin, 2h 27 min from Bydgoszcz and Torun it means than you can "collect" people from other regions! That is an advantage for airport which can be used in talks with companies.
earthman wrote:There are four daily flights to WAW by LOT, with onward connections to many other places. There are also four daily connections to Munich, by LOT and Lufthansa, and two daily connections to Frankfurt, by LOT. Yes it costs a lot, but if you need to get somewhere, you can. There are LCC flights to London and Dublin, which are the main LCC destinations people fly to from Poland anyway, it seems.

Germany is close enough that people will travel there by other means, although there are flights to several German cities (anyone ever heard of Dau Air? Who are they?).

The fact that there is only 6% unemployment would actually reduce the need for travel, since less people will be traveling to, say, the UK for work.
Just bird-eye view of map of Poland will give You answer of totally weird thing which is called - "flying to Western Europe across Warsaw". We loose time and money. What sence does it make to fly to the East 300 km and then fly back these 300 km to West and then more until reaching Paris, Amsterdam, Brussels...???

Flying to Munich and Frankfurt is good idea when you are going to US, but flying within Europe is rather hard... Again you loose time (it often happens that you have to wait because of delayes) and money. In Poznan itself you can find 92.000 registered companies - within 2.500 of them with foreign capital. Businessmen associated in "Rada Pasazerow" (Council of the Passengers) demand new connections to such important cities like Brussels, Paris, London (Gatwick or Heathrow), Amsterdam, Barcelona, Milan, Rome. For them change in Munich or Frankfurt doesn't solve the problem.

Flying from Poland because of labour reasons doesn't make a big impact on airport of city with law unemployment rate.
Counties of Poland which have unemp.rate around 30% don't have their airports - it is obvious that people who want to fly to UK go to big cities - no matter where, important is that they offer connections...
earthman wrote:what would you
need to get going is to advertise Poznań as a tourist destination. Right now, I suppose most tourists will go to Kraków, after all, who has heard of Poznań? (Besides it getting mentioned on every AMS-WAW flight with KLM by the pilots).
You are absolutely right!!! :)
and that is what we're going to make!
earthman wrote:it is nice that you
get people to sign a petition, but the fact that Sky Europe axed a route even before they started flying would indicate that not many people actually bought tickets.
I will try to tell You more about what we are doing now. What I can say - it is not only the petitions :)

As I said there are many issues which have put our airport into such situation. We are not the only one example (airports of Szczecin, Bydgoszcz and Lodz in some way deal with similar problems).

I will try to present you these problems on next days. So you will get more information and I think you will understand us better and our reasons which has put us to do such a campaign.

Thanks for commentary and greetings!

starosta
Posts: 35
Joined: 17 Jun 2006, 00:00
Location: Poznan, Poland
Contact:

Re: industry

Post by starosta »

b720 wrote:welcome to the forum, great to hear from people everywhere.
Little remark about your campaign though. keep in mind that avaition is an industry where money is made or lost. The reason you have direct flights to only 11 european cities is probably because there are not enough passengers for the 12th destination. Poland is a member of the EU now, so the industry is deregulated. If there is money to be made in Poznan, airlines would have floked in. With all due respect they are not waiting for your campain to make a buck.
ragrads
hello!

The problem is that people want to fly from Poznan! And that there are pasengers for new connections!

Airport authorities have presented a data from Berlin airports which show that 200.000 Poznanians! (only the citizens of Poznan) were travelling from Berlin... If You consider that total number of passengers on Poznan airport in 2005 has reached the level of 420.000 You can see how many people we have lost...And be sure - there is a lot money in Poznan already! :)

Another thing is that many cities (also Polish) atract companies to fly to them. As You know they give money or just do the advertisment. Unfortunately our local authorities don't realise the new situation brought to Poland after 2004. :(

We think that in some way - we have to show the potential of the city and region - we the citizens - we could be able to deal with companies. At the end who will be flying? Authorities? No! Businessmen and citizens!!!

What I can tell more - is that in 2005 I was forced 2 times to fly outside of Poznan. I was going to Rome and what I had were the cheap flights from Katowice and Krakow.
Imagine that my travel by train took me 5,5 h to Katowice, then 1 h of bus to get to their airport; finally I had 2 h of flight to Rome...
My travel back to Krakow was made in the same manner - 2 h of flight and then 7h by dirty and stinky train (unfortunately Polish trains are like this) to Poznan.
Lot of friends of mine from Poznan and region had to do the same - were flying from Katowice, Berlin, Krakow, Warsaw... Complete nonsence!

This is also my private motivation to make something to improve this situation! I want to fly from Poznan and so my friends do! And as the campaign is going on - it is showing that many people think in the same way :)
Air companies will receive information - we want to fly from Poznan and that they can make money on it :)

greetings!

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Vinnie-Winnie
Posts: 955
Joined: 01 Jul 2004, 00:00
Location: London

Re: industry

Post by Vinnie-Winnie »

starosta wrote:Airport authorities have presented a data from Berlin airports which show that 200.000 Poznanians! (only the citizens of Poznan) were travelling from Berlin... If You consider that total number of passengers on Poznan airport in 2005 has reached the level of 420.000 You can see how many people we have lost...And be sure - there is a lot money in Poznan already! :)
Yes but that is like saying that Brussels loses millions of long-haul passengers to Heathrow, CDG, Frankfurt and Schiphol!

Though it has been tried to establish a network of long-haul destinations, yield were low and Sabena to name it couldn't attract enough passengers thanks to the competition of the above named airports!

Brussels and Poznan are in the same situation! Only the dream destinations change...

starosta
Posts: 35
Joined: 17 Jun 2006, 00:00
Location: Poznan, Poland
Contact:

Re: industry

Post by starosta »

Vinnie-Winnie wrote: Yes but that is like saying that Brussels loses millions of long-haul passengers to Heathrow, CDG, Frankfurt and Schiphol!

Though it has been tried to establish a network of long-haul destinations, yield were low and Sabena to name it couldn't attract enough passengers thanks to the competition of the above named airports!

Brussels and Poznan are in the same situation! Only the dream destinations change...
Hello!

Interesting what are You writing wbove.

What I can tell You more? People from Poznan go to Berlin because they don't have connections to such airports like:
- Brussels
- Paris
- Rome
- Barcelona
- Milano
They think it is better to drive by car/bus or go by train to Berlin and pay less then fly with Polish Airlines LOT to Warsaw or Lufthansa to Munich/Frankfurt and make a change there...

If they were existing such connections we wouldn't have had such situation. Nobody would fly from Berlin if he could from Poznan!

Those who want to fly to Germany can do it from Poznan (there is Munich and Frankfurt and Stuttgart, Dortmund and Paderborn with little known and rather not so atractive Dauair...)

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Vinnie-Winnie
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Location: London

Re: industry

Post by Vinnie-Winnie »

starosta wrote:Interesting what are You writing wbove.
Thanks! :)

To be honest and don't get me wwrong you are still not convincing me... Better to upgrade the rail line between Poznan and Berlin no? Think about it good links and less noise for those people living near the airports... :)

Not every city needs an international airport after all! Pride costs money!

starosta
Posts: 35
Joined: 17 Jun 2006, 00:00
Location: Poznan, Poland
Contact:

to convince You ;)

Post by starosta »

Vinnie-Winnie wrote:
starosta wrote:Interesting what are You writing wbove.
Thanks! :)

To be honest and don't get me wwrong you are still not convincing me... Better to upgrade the rail line between Poznan and Berlin no? Think about it good links and less noise for those people living near the airports... :)

Not every city needs an international airport after all! Pride costs money!
so I won't stop until I will convince You!!! ;)

Rail to Berlin is already upgraded. 2h 54 min of travel
But it doesn't matter.

Why don't use the very good airport which is just 6 km from the centre of Poznan?
Why don't have connections to the major cities and regions of Europe?
Why go always to Berlin, loosing money and time of precious life for travel?

The point is that Poznan and its region/neighbouring area is too big to not have the airport with good conections! :)
[once again the numbers:
Poznan 570.000
aglomeration 830.000
distance of 100 km 3,4 mln
distance of 150 km 7,8 mln]

And of course I am not talking about conections to Nairobi or Jakarta but those European!!!


If we were the city of 100.000 like neighbouring Zielona Gora (118.000 inhabitants) and they have small airport [conections only to Warsaw]) with a small neighbouring area we wouldn't have needed many conections. But I think that even Zielona Gora should have some connections more!

So it is not the matter of pride! It is a matter of usuall life!
People need to have good transportation :)

If You could talk with people from Poznan they would tell You the same - they don't want to loose time and money for travel to Berlin. And they would like to see more direct flights from Poznan.

Tomorrow we will be collecting petitions on the Polwiejska street in the centre of Poznan. :)
Believe me - it is very nice when You talk with people and hear that they support idea of campaign. That they identify with it :)
This is more convincing than anything else!
Last time we were standing on the street we've collected 973 petitions just in 3,5 hours :)


still not convinced?
greetings :)

AlexanderM
Posts: 77
Joined: 23 Jun 2006, 14:51

Post by AlexanderM »

I think it's not a bad idea. If there are enough people in the region who will use the airport, rather than traveling many hours by train, why shouldn't there be good connections to other european cities?
Yes but that is like saying that Brussels loses millions of long-haul passengers to Heathrow, CDG, Frankfurt and Schiphol!
I don't really agree there, Brussels has an extensive network that serves all main cities in Europe, plus it DOES have long-haul connections by several airlines. and appart from that, we also have very good railway connections to Paris, London, Amsterdam,... and still Belgians use Brussels airport rather than going to Paris or Amsterdam. When we have a transit in i.e. London, we also take the plane there, and we don't go by train.

I support your idea, Starosta!

muggins
Posts: 7
Joined: 06 Feb 2004, 00:00

Good luck!

Post by muggins »

Hi starosta ,

Best wishes for your campaign. You certainly have my support (for what it's worth!)

For a country of Poland's size and population, I think that the number of air services to regional airports (KRK, LCJ, POZ, WRO etc) has been (and in many cases still is) shamefully poor.

The problem is trying to convince airlines that the market for services to cities such as Poznan exists. In my view, LOT has been particularly guilty of concentrating only on Warsaw.

However, there is one airline who has made it their business over the last 15 years to provide point-to-point services to underserved regional airports and who have generated large volumes of traffic and tourism in the process.

Having seen what they have achieved at some British airports (STN, EMA, LPL), and elsewhere in Europe (Shannon, Carcassonne, Pisa, Girona etc), I would strongly recommend that you try to pursuade Ryanair to increase their services to Poznan. Yes, they're controversial and some people really don't like them, but their contribution to Europe's regional airports is unquestionable.

Ryanair already fly three routes to Poznan (STN daily, DUB 3 per week and LPL 3 per week from October). Looking at the passenger loads on STN-POZ, I would have thought that an extra 3 or 4 services a week would be a good idea. This is a strong foundation and I believe that Poznan has the potential for many more:
  • EMA - Ryanair's new routes from EMA to Lodz and Wroclaw seem to be hugely successful. I'm sure POZ would work too.
  • HHN, NRN - HHN to Gdansk seems to be developing well and they're adding routes to Wroclaw and Krakow in the Autumn. Surely routes to Germany from POZ would do well?
  • CIA, BGY, BVA, GRO - Direct links to Italy, France and Spain would certainly be popular
  • CRL - It's only a matter of time before Ryanair add routes to Central Europe from CRL - why not POZ?
  • TRF, NYO - Would there be a market for direct flights to Scandinavia?
What other routes are you looking for to be served from POZ?

Do you think that POZ could become a small Ryanair base in future?

Please keep us up-to-date with your campaign!

Simon

starosta
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Location: Poznan, Poland
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Post by starosta »

Hello Muggins :)

Thank You for support!

As we do the voting on Polish web page which is www.chcemylatac.prv.pl
I can give You information which cities are on the top :)

Everybody can choose max 5 cities from 54 proposed - below You have the top 20:

1. Rome
2. Barcelona
3. Paris
4. Amsterdam
5. Athens
6. Stockholm
7. Brussels
8. Edinburgh
9. Oslo
10. Milan
11. New York
12. Helsinki
13. Prague
14. Madrid
15. Vienna
16. Frankfurt Hahn
17. Krakow
18. Lisbon
19. Goteborg
20. Budapest

For me all of them sound realistic.
ROME, PARIS, BARCELONA - I just don't understand why we don't have them yet???

I'm sure they would have passengers.
Generally - because of economic situation - all flights to countries like UK, Ireland, Spain, Sweden, Finland, Greece (Poles can work there without any problems) can bring profits for air companies (specially low-cost),


:) I see that You have very good information about situation on Polish airports :)

I agree with You - LOT is guilty of sick situation in which Polish airports were kept and still are somehow. LOT has lost many good connections - because was launching only Warsaw. If they were thinking in normal way, they could have controlled UK-Polish routes! But now it is to late - low cost carriers have taken this piece of big cake.
Shame on you LOT!

That is right - by now Poznan has only 4 low-cost destianations:
- London Luton by Wizzair
- London Stansted, Dublin and in the Autumn Liverpool by Ryanair
- we have also Aer Lingus to Dublin :)

I would add from UK and Ireland such cities like:
- Edinburgh or Glasgow [generally Scottland]
- East Midlands or Birmingham
- Bornemouth or Southampton
- Shannon
- Cork

in the future Newcastle, Bristol and Belfast could be good as well

and of course "normal" London, so Gatwick or Heathrow :)

I think connections to Moscow, St. Petersburg and Kiev could bring profits as well (with "normal" airlines). We really have a lot of businessmen here.

I don't think we will get Ryanair base in Poznan. Although as I was writing before - we have conditions for such base. Good location in the centre of western Poland. :( Our local authorities are....no comments. They just don't understand this new situation (after convention of "free sky") and probably won't atract them now.
But we have local elections on November this year :)


That is why we - "the people" have to arrange something :)
We have to make presure on politicians and demand from them more good decisions regarding the development of the airport!

One of the top problems - that Poznan's airport is still controlled (63% of shares) by state company "Polish Airports" based in...Warsaw.

Second is lack of good promotion of the city - responsible are local authorities. It is also a "field of work" for us. And we are trying to do it :)

greetings

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sn26567
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Post by sn26567 »

starosta wrote:7. Brussels
LOT tried flying BRU-POZ in 2000 or 2001, in codeshare with Sabena. It did not last long: the load factor (even for a small plane like the EMB145) was too low.

But now Poland has joined the EU. Maybe it might work...; but I would not use a plane larger than the EMB135.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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fokker_f27
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Post by fokker_f27 »

What about a small airline using Amazon or Brasillia to fly to Warsaw? It would require a transfer, but it having direct connections out of Pozan just doesn't seem like an idea that would last long, at least for the time being.
The most sexy girl in the sky: The Sud-Est Caravelle 12.

starosta
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Location: Poznan, Poland
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Post by starosta »

hello :D

today during the 4 hours of standing in the centre of Poznan, we have collected 1.450 new petitions :D

:)

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TexasGuy
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Post by TexasGuy »

starosta wrote:hello :D

today during the 4 hours of standing in the centre of Poznan, we have collected 1.450 new petitions :D

:)
This is amazing. You have a good spirit, i wish you much success with your campaign :):):)

starosta
Posts: 35
Joined: 17 Jun 2006, 00:00
Location: Poznan, Poland
Contact:

Post by starosta »

thank You! :D

please have a look on some photos :)

We want to fly!
Image

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our banner :)
Image

some German tourist supported us as well :)
Image

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local media ;)
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after the action we went to the Old Town for some good meal :)

Image

greetings :)

jan_olieslagers
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Post by jan_olieslagers »

The last photograph is really attractive, think I'll visit Poznan very soon: beautiful building centre (a church it seems?), beautiful biergarten far right, beautiful person far left - what more can we wish?

Seriously though: do not dream of intra-european air travel. For short- and mid-range travel aviation is becoming too expensive with the raising fuel prices. Low-cost carriers will soon begin to decline, in my opinion. Train, especially high speed train will become the preferred means to travel 500-1000 kms. Less: by car, more: by plane.

Just my 2 €c ,

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TexasGuy
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Location: Houston, Texas

Post by TexasGuy »

From the pics, it looks like a very fun group of people. People having a party and i was not invited, i am very jealous :):):)
Theres nothing better than slow cooked fall off the bone BBQ, Texas style

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