Airbus won't redesign A350

[fleabyte]

and Boeing is several moves ahead of Airbus, so whatever they do, Boeing will hit them where they are most vulnerable:

A "777-300ER killer" will not have a chance against a 787-3 and 787-8, but will obsolete the A340 and A330-300 more so than the 787-10 will to the 777-200.

Boeing can react with Y1 or Y3, and or upgrades to 777, it will be interesting, the have shifted the action/reaction cycle into their favor. I think this is all the result of the distraction of the A380

[RC20]

I i don't think Airbus needs to disclose what they are doing in the background, so whether they have the composite materials technolgoy we don't know, but it's hard to imagine they don't.. Also how many man hours did Boeing waste with the Sonic Cruiser?? And let's not talk about the government aid thing in this thread..

Boeing did not waste man hours with the sonic cruiser.

It was extremely innovative, it brought forth materials and technology that would make a difference, and it got Boeing and the airlines talking (and the airlines convinced that Boeing was serious, which certainly had merit).

A great deal of the more advanced Sonic Cruiser went into the 787.

Boeing will use that technology for the next two major models they come out with.

So, all those man hours that wound up with an aircraft that is beating the daylights out of Airbus, and may knock them completely out of the game- was very, very well spent. (at least from Boeing perspective).

[RC20]

and Boeing is several moves ahead of Airbus, so whatever they do, Boeing will hit them where they are most vulnerable:

A "777-300ER killer" will not have a chance against a 787-3 and 787-8, but will obsolete the A340 and A330-300 more so than the 787-10 will to the 777-200.

Boeing can react with Y1 or Y3, and or upgrades to 777, it will be interesting, the have shifted the action/reaction cycle into their favor. I think this is all the result of the distraction of the A380

There was a recent quote from an analyst that pretty well says it all.

“There is nothing wrong with being second, if that allows you to offer a superior product”

At best, Airbus will offer an equivalent product. However, they are behind on the learning curve, so that’s a stretch. Boeing has 4 models of the 787 right now. Airbus doesn’t even have one.

More likely they are not ready with an equivalent (composites) , and will try to offer a conventional airframe. While some may buy it just because they dislike Boeing (or the US), it will be a lame duck.

The killer blow will be the Y1, that gets Airbus in its bread and butter, and they will be able to do Y1 better than Airbus, because they have the experience of the 787 to draw on.

It may be a bit close (60-40 ultimately) but if they do it soon enough, it could be 70-30 or even 80-20.

The question Airbus has to face at this point, do we get out of the business. Right now they are looking at 10 billion for the A350/370, another 5 billion to buy out BAE, probably 6 billon to fight the Y1, and at least another 10 billion for the Y3.

Y1 is now on a two track path that has two aircraft coming out of it, so that is another x billion. Huge investment sums in an uncertain enterprise (they have not proved they can even do a conventional aircraft right lately. With the WTA action, launch aid is not going to happen.

I think Airbus is on a glide path to oblivion. They would have to been actively working on this at the same time as Boeing and were not even thinking about it.

[boeing797]

It seems that every one thinks Airbus is in bad shape. Worst comes to worst, in the case Airbus is in troubles, EU governments will come to rescue. There is no way they let Airbus being reduced to a 30% market-shared airframer.

Just my 2 cents.

Ciao

[fleabyte]

I agree, the simultaneous support for A380, A350 A360, A320 replacement will be the manifestation. Beauty of it is that the discipline of the marketplace is weighing heavy against the arrogance of state industrail policies at least at the moment.

[achace]

It is a pity that this forum seems to become a Boeing V. Airbus love/hate match.

The simple fact is that Airbus made doubtful claims about the A350 now very much seen to be nothing more than propaganda, and Boeing similarly have made extravagant claims about the 747-8 economics.

Still only 18 units sold (all freighters), 7 less than the A380F, so wild claims by both about performance do not appear to influence the customers, who at the last count still hold the purse strings.

The world demand for airliners cannot be met by one Western manufacturer. They will continue in business because of demand, and anyone saying that one or the other is doomed is ignoring reality.

I think this subject started out as being whether or not Airbus will re-design the A350.

They say so, so lets wait and see how much of a new design it turns out to be.

Cheers
Achace

[David747]

It is a pity that this forum seems to become a Boeing V. Airbus love/hate match.

Exactly, this pointless Airbus v Boeing battle is getting boring already.

The simple fact is that Airbus made doubtful claims about the A350 now very much seen to be nothing more than propaganda, and Boeing similarly have made extravagant claims about the 747-8 economics.

Very true, with the A350, Airbus did make some of those claims before launching the program. When it comes to the 747-8i, you are right, Boeing is hyping the economics of this aircraft to steal some orders from the A380 and this is what aircraft manufactures always do. When the 747-8 comes into operations(God I hope it does) we shall see how it does.

The world demand for airliners cannot be met by one Western manufacturer. They will continue in business because of demand, and anyone saying that one or the other is doomed is ignoring reality.

Exactly!

I think this subject started out as being whether or not Airbus will re-design the A350.

Seeing that the A350 will be redesign, i can't wait to see what Airbus will do. Call me a geek, but I love new airliners. :thumbsup2:

[RC20]

I think what many of us appreciate is the fact that Airbus in their arrogance is getting taken to the cleaners.

Some of us dislike that sort of government subsidized industry. At some point if it can’t fly on its own (pun intended) it should be allowed to die.

I admire what Airbus did on a technical level, though I detest the direct subsides they got to do it (not to mention the indirect ones, such as using revolving Marshal Plan money to create infrastructure that competed with both Boeing and MD).

And the apologist for Airbus that throw out nonsense such as “well so what if they lied about the A350, Boeing is lying about the 747-8).

Boeing has always been very conservative about the figures they put out, and the ones they are putting out for the 747-8 will be exceeded somewhat (already improvements as the wing is doing better than they thought it would). Airbus has not met any of their specifications recently.

You can argue figures all day long, what any Airliner or freighter will do is take the figures they are given, and apply them to their routes, and then decide.

The reality is that the A380 was hugely overweight, and that was a screw-up. Its also designed to be stretched, so in its shorter configuration it has to have a heavier structure to handle the stretch

The Boeing 774 is stretched, and does not require beef up, so it benefits from that. The A380 stretch is very likely to have better economics. However, its not flying yet, and may not fly. It would also have to have full loads to do that. Not many Airlines can afford to leave slack space for pools, saunas, gulf course and such (none actually).

I do not dispute Boeing has had its share of arrogance, hubris and questionable decisions, but they have also worked hard to correct that, and have done a magnificent job the last two launches. (3 with the new 747).

Airbus has spouted a lot of propaganda, and seem to think they can sell on that. Its obviously not working. Me, I like to see the trash talker get it.

And it’s a lot of fun to speculate on what they will do, and if that does not appeal, you simply can read other threads.

[TexasGuy]

I personally would like them both to succeed because it is competition. I am an American and i believe in capitalism and competiton. Competiton is a GREAT driving force behind innovation!!!!! Innovation is always good for the consumer :):) Full speed ahead Boeing 787 and Airbus 350



....

[David747]

Some of us dislike that sort of government subsidized industry. At some point if it can’t fly on its own (pun intended) it should be allowed to die.

I guess you must hate the Japanese government subsidized 787 wings.

I admire what Airbus did on a technical level, though I detest the direct subsides they got to do it (not to mention the indirect ones, such as using revolving Marshal Plan money to create infrastructure that competed with both Boeing and MD).

I also destest the indirect and direct subsidies Boeing is getting with its 787 program from foreign governments, like you know, Japan with the wing, Washington State tax breaks.

And the apologist for Airbus that throw out nonsense such as “well so what if they lied about the A350, Boeing is lying about the 747-8).

Oh snap, right, Airbus lies about its products only and Boeing is conservative, last time I looked, both manufacturers did their best to sell their aircrafts as "super efficient, excellent" etc.. its Marketing man.

The reality is that the A380 was hugely overweight, and that was a screw-up. Its also designed to be stretched, so in its shorter configuration it has to have a heavier structure to handle the stretch

A screw up? The plane hasn't even entered service yet, so we don't know how the airplane will perform, and if it is "overweight" how it will affect the performence of the aircraft, or unless you see the future, then maybe its a screw up, but then again, if you see the future, can you tell me today's lotto numbers?

The Boeing 774 is stretched, and does not require beef up, so it benefits from that. The A380 stretch is very likely to have better economics. However, its not flying yet, and may not fly. It would also have to have full loads to do that. Not many Airlines can afford to leave slack space for pools, saunas, gulf course and such (none actually).

Two things, first of all, the 777-400 doesn't exist. Second, the stretch version of the A380 is just an idea right now, and Airbus is not putting any resources to it. Like most of us who can't see the future as you do, we will wait to see how the A380 will perform(and If I can make a guess, it will perform beautifully) before Airbus decides to launch a derivative of the airliner.

I do not dispute Boeing has had its share of arrogance, hubris and questionable decisions, but they have also worked hard to correct that, and have done a magnificent job the last two launches. (3 with the new 747).

Boeing is still arrogant today, i mean, remember that 787 will get 200 orders before the end of 2004?

Airbus has spouted a lot of propaganda, and seem to think they can sell on that. Its obviously not working. Me, I like to see the trash talker get it.

It would be nice if you can provide an example of the propaganda.

And it’s a lot of fun to speculate on what they will do, and if that does not appeal, you simply can read other threads.

[/quote]

Well, I am going to speculate, new A350 will be one hell of an airliner, it reminds me of McDonald Douglas launch of the MD-11. Too bad MD is no longer with us. :cry2:

[CX]

i just dont' think airlines are stupid and simply 'believe' what the seller says the aircraft can do... i mean no way i'll believe something 10T heavier will require less fuel for airborne...

As for the subsidies, just live up to the fact that both of them are getting subsidies...

I think RC20 was supposed to type 748 and accidentally typed 774 (somehow).. I am convinced a stretched 380will fly, Emirates hinted it before, they described the -800 as a 'baby' A380..

[fleabyte]

"It would be nice if you can provide an example of the propaganda."

1. Mr. Forgeard saying that the 787 was a "Chinese A330"
2. Airbus claiming the record number of bookings in 2005, which include a non existant "order" for 60 A350ishes, (37) A300 that have been debooked in 2006 - added the 10 A380 for UPS, did not substact the cancellations, and 200 A320 "ordered" by airlines with a total fleet at the moment of 7 ATR42 turboprop regional jets
3. Performance claims on A340-500 below reality, while performance claims on 777-300ER exceed promise.
4. Delivery claims on A380
5. Airbus advertising campaign in Aviation Week claiming the A350ish thing was "The Most Advanced Aircraft in The World"
6. 4 engines for the long haul, then where are the four engines on the A350ish?

"everybody gets subisdies, they are a good thing"

State subsidies: Boeing gets tax breaks from Washington to keep manufacturing in the State, and Japan helps Mitsubishi and other heavy industries with advanced technology VS France and German States creating a company and nurturing it with direct state aid, building it's facilities, subsidizing loans to it's clients, allowing it to invest in poor airlines like NW, US Air and America West in return for orders, using it's politicians as salesmen, and giving it forgivable loans on an ongoing basis, even when it is profitable, all to distort the market to where other commercial entities like McDonnel Douglas and Lockheed seek greener pasteurs.

[David747]

"It would be nice if you can provide an example of the propaganda."

1. Mr. Forgeard saying that the 787 was a "Chinese A330"

yes, he got the wrong country, he should have said, Japanese A330.

2. Airbus claiming the record number of bookings in 2005, which include a non existant "order" for 60 A350ishes, (37) A300 that have been debooked in 2006 - added the 10 A380 for UPS, did not substact the cancellations, and 200 A320 "ordered" by airlines with a total fleet at the moment of 7 ATR42 turboprop regional jets

Non existant orders?

Why would Airbus post non existant orders in its log book?

3. Performance claims on A340-500 below reality, while performance claims on 777-300ER exceed promise.

I agree with that.

4. Delivery claims on A380

A380 is a big project, and they were optimistic, but I wouldn't call delivery claims to be propaganda, as you know many programs had a delivery claim that were delayed, like the DC-10.

5. Airbus advertising campaign in Aviation Week claiming the A350ish thing was "The Most Advanced Aircraft in The World"

I have to see those advertisements seen i don't get aviation week, I only get time to read it if I am at the Library, and the few editions I read, I didn't see such advertisement.

6. 4 engines for the long haul, then where are the four engines on the A350ish?

You mean 4 engines 4 long haul? I agree with you there.

"everybody gets subisdies, they are a good thing"

and Japan helps Mitsubishi and other heavy industries with advanced technology VS France and German States creating a company and nurturing it with di

State subsidies: Boeing gets tax breaks from Washington to keep manufacturing in the State,

rect state aid, building it's facilities, subsidizing loans to it's clients, allowing it to invest in poor airlines like NW, US Air and America West in return for orders, using it's politicians as salesmen, and giving it forgivable loans on an ongoing basis, even when it is profitable, all to distort the market to where other commercial entities like McDonnel Douglas and Lockheed seek greener pasteurs.

EADS/Airbus have no choice but to get subsidies from European governments, took, just like Washington State does, a manufacturing base in those countries. Second, how is EADS/Airbus supposed to compete with Boeing when Boeing gets US defense government contracts?

[CXRules]

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... prize.html

[CXRules]

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... prize.html

sorry for the double post, the first one is screw up. Anyway, looks like the newly designed A350 will be called A370

[Bracebrace]

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/05/ ... iss001.cfm

I love this sentence:

Airbus surpassed Boeing during the '90s largely because the Americans became "complacent and arrogant," Hamilton wrote. "Airbus fell into the same trap."

Article contains a lot of truth on the attitude of Airbus AND Boeing. No need to to defend either one of them.

[David747]

I felt compelled to defend Airbus, because I saw some unfair allegations against that company. anyway, lets not turn this into an Airbus v Boeing flamefest.

[CX]

no i mean the A345/346 was underperforming was because fuel accounts for a much higher percentage of operating cost than before, and that's why the 773ER is over-performing..

I did see the A350 called 'The most advanced twin' on Airbus' on website, but i mean, are you goign to advertise your product as "the second most advanced twin'?? i mean advertising are just lies, it is there to put an image on us, and how is the Dreamliner a 'dream'liner??

[David747]

I did see the A350 called 'The most advanced twin' on Airbus' on website, but i mean, are you goign to advertise your product as "the second most advanced twin'?? i mean advertising are just lies, it is there to put an image on us, and how is the Dreamliner a 'dream'liner??

[/quote]

Exactly

[CXRules]

Here's what U.S. Airways has to say about A350: http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... order.html