Coming up merger SNBA-VEX

NicoD · Post by **NicoD** » 29 Oct 2003, 19:53

SN30952 writes "SN Brussels Airlines was born out of the collapse of national carrier Sabena two years ago, and Virgin broke off merger talks in February 2002.
The Belgian carrier said Tuesday its code-sharing agreements with full-service carriers could be a hurdle to possibly reopening merger talks with no-frills peer Virgin Express.

"It hasn't become easier," SNBA said, as full-service airlines linked to SNBA via code-sharing agreements demand that their passengers are offered full-service provisions. That constitutes a hurdle," he said, explaining that SNBA is offering a different product as compared to low-fare peer Virgin Express."

Hi all,

Just to put the record straight and give you some stuff to think about...

1. In my opnion it has not been Virgin that pulled out of the negociations about a year ago, but SN! Apparently they couldn't agree with the policy of a low cost company...

2. I can imagine that settled airlines are not too happy with a low cost company being involved in merger talks with a codeshare partner, but... on the other hand, what is SN in Europe, not one of the big players, certainly not!

3. Statement removed by administrator

4. Whatever will happen, it will NOT be totally positive or negative. When a merger with SN becomes reality, it's almost certain that several Virgin employees will have to leave, SN still is the national symbol and you bet they will have priority (although I hope all chances will be equal) and I don't even want to know yet who will get which opportunities... Virgin employees are not ex-Sabeniens, and this counts, believe me... In a positive way than: we have too many companies for a country as little as ours. I even think a merger between SN and TV would be not so bad for our local economy. Maybe again, we will have a bigger and more competitive comapny!

Again this is my opinion on what is happening and I'm pretty sure I forgot to mention a lot of things, but maybe we can talk together about this and gather the whole of our ideas!

kind regards
NicoD

Comet · Post by **Comet** » 29 Oct 2003, 20:03

A merger between SN and TV??!!! Please tell me this is a joke!!

I have just booked flights with SNBA on the understanding that I would fly with SNBA. The only thing worse would be flying on a code share operated by BA!!

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 29 Oct 2003, 21:32

I personally hope that SNBA will never merge with VEX

I like Virgin Express and I like SNBA but I don't want to see a mix airline of both.

BTW I think that there is place for two carriers like VEX and SNBA in BRU. They are both aiming at totally different markets and should stay doing this.

Ciao
Chris
8)

NicoD · Post by **NicoD** » 30 Oct 2003, 07:02

Hi Avro and Comet

I can see what you both mean, but I still have my doubts on the chances of two carriers competing on the same routes in a country that small as ours. I don't know whether it will be a good or bad idea, I only hope the right choice will be made!

NicoD

Post by **sn26567** » 30 Oct 2003, 08:45

Comet wrote:A merger between SN and TV??!!! Please tell me this is a joke!

As Nico mentioned, there ARE talks between SN and TV, notwithstanding what Kuijpers can say. These talks are probably low gear now (difference of culture!) and they would not necessarily result in a merger. It could be a co-operation, a non-comptetition clause, a codesharing agreement, or anything else. Some options, like codesharing which left bad memories, will probably be excluded because of the difference of culture.

But nothing is done yet. Not even close to a conclusion...

vliegtuigfreak · Post by **vliegtuigfreak** » 30 Oct 2003, 08:55

Comet wrote:A merger between SN and TV??!!! Please tell me this is a joke!!

I hope it!!

Greetingzz
Sonny

Comet · Post by **Comet** » 30 Oct 2003, 09:47

I don't even want to see code sharing!!! I want my flights next year to be operated by SN Brussels, or I will go back to VLM.

A318 · Post by **A318** » 30 Oct 2003, 11:49

Comet, none of those airlines are waiting for you, they want to have a strong base with businesses. Don't you think one big national airline again in Belgium would be much better then small companies fighting the competition?
Exactly, that's what I thought too, only thing is to get both companies into the same direction with that idea. I think it could be the chance to put Belgium (Zaventem) back on the international aviation market.

Greetz,

Erwin

Comet · Post by **Comet** » 30 Oct 2003, 12:02

I agree that Belgium needs a strong national airline, but I would rather see a merger between VLM and SNBA (though I hardly think this will happen) than SNBA and VEX.

If SNBA and VEX merged, what would the onboard service be like? I flew Aer Lingus in June, and they are moving away from the traditional image of the national flag carrier offering full service to something resembling Ryanair (that is their intention, not just my opinion). When I flew with EI there was no food service, just "tea, coffee, juice or water", and in the near future they will be charging passengers for in-flight drinks and food (if you are lucky enough to be offered the chance to eat).

It would be a shame if an airline "descended" from a great carrier went down the same, low cost style route.

I think that SNBA and VEX should be kept well apart. Or if it does go ahead then it should be to form a full service carrier.

A318 · Post by **A318** » 30 Oct 2003, 12:13

I agree with that but look what KLM is doing to solve that problem.
You have now the choice of Economy base (food available when you pay), Economy and ofcourse business. A part of the market doesn't want to pay 100, 200 or 300 euro more to get some drinks and food, so KLM introduced this into a lot of flights and it turns out to be a big succes. So you can integrate some kind of low cost into a traditional airline, just be careful that you don't over do it.

Greetz,

Erwin

NicoD · Post by **NicoD** » 30 Oct 2003, 16:06

I certainly agree with what A318 is saying, but also Comet's posts surprise me. I really didn't know abything about what he said about e.g. IE. But on the other hand, for European flights also Swiss chargesd the passengers for food and drinks, as well as Maersk Air... (as I read in the SNBA's Inflight Magazine Connect) I think this is an evolution that will keep on growing. All airlines urgently need to make money...

NicoD

Comet · Post by **Comet** » 30 Oct 2003, 16:13

NicoD wrote:Comet's posts surprise me. I really didn't know abything about what he said about e.g. IE.
NicoD

Nico - I am NOT a he!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aer Lingus are looking to market themselves more as a low cost carrier in order to compete with Ryanair.

NicoD · Post by **NicoD** » 30 Oct 2003, 16:14

Sorry Comet didn't know...

though it's interesting what you're telling

Nico

Comet · Post by **Comet** » 30 Oct 2003, 16:19

My experiences with Aer Lingus cause me to have doubts about the benefits of a SNBA/VEX merger.

I can see Erwin's point about different levels of economy, business class, but on Aer Lingus that doesn't exist. It is just very basic for a national flag carrier. I have heard that SWISS are going the same way, and I would hate to see a Belgian national airline be like that, especially when you consider how brilliant Sabena were.

Lien · Post by **Lien** » 30 Oct 2003, 17:39

sn26567 wrote:These talks are probably low gear now (difference of culture!)

Hello,

Although I don't see what you mean sn26567, in case of a merger
between SN and VEX, they should start from scratch and use a whole
new name, and cut all ties.

The only way for a fresh and good start.

Lien !

Dorfmeister · Post by **Dorfmeister** » 30 Oct 2003, 18:37

Another thing to think about is; how could they survive at first, with a mixed bunch of B733 - 734 - RJ85/100 - Bae 146 - A319 and A330... it's not really the best fleet we can imagine.

I know that they will standardise their fleet with I assume 3 types (short - medium - long Haul), but could you imagine, how many it might cost them in the beginning?

On the other hand, as some have already stated before, it's not a bad thing to have 2 "main" companies in Bru. Why? 'Cause... a monopolistic' situation is never good, and EU does not seem to like this a lot.

So, to my humble opinion, the best and the most efficient, would be a kind of agreement, between VEX and SN, with a non "concurrence" (sorry, I don't remember the english word) clause. While VEX will be taking his share of "leisure" lines, and SN the "business" one.

If they play it smart, both of them could be 1) Profitable 2) just big enough to have their own niche and can't let some bigger player come in and eat the market... What d'you think of it?

Regards,

Benjamin

P.S: Sorry, i had a f***ing big boring day and my english must be really bad today.

Post by **airbuske** » 30 Oct 2003, 18:59

I don't know.
I'm not for a merger between VEX and SNBA.
VEX and SNBA are different company's.
Even a code share agreement is not easy.
let's wait and see .

greetings

Airbuske

Comet · Post by **Comet** » 30 Oct 2003, 21:41

Lien wrote:
sn26567 wrote:These talks are probably low gear now (difference of culture!)

Hello,

Although I don't see what you mean sn26567, in case of a merger
between SN and VEX, they should start from scratch and use a whole
new name, and cut all ties.

The only way for a fresh and good start.

Lien !

I would have thought it was obvious to anyone with some intelligence and more than half a brain cell what Andre means by a difference of culture!!

VEX and SNBA are two different types of airlines - one full service and one low cost, the two don't mix well. In a merger situation with a full service carrier and a low cost carrier, something would have to give - the low cost would have to take on board becoming a full service airline, or the full service airline would have to totally change its image and marketing strategies and move downmarket.

Jester · Post by **Jester** » 30 Oct 2003, 21:48

Like Comet said! Most people expect on a codeshare flight the same service as the company where they bought the ticket.
When SNBA did the codeshare-flights with VEX, people with a SNBA-ticket were "punished" on a VEX-flight, having to pay for drinks. Passengers with a VEX-ticket on a SNBA-flight were offered free food and drinks ... doesn't make sence, does it??
I like the no-competition idea!! As long as the Belgian Airlines survive!!!
And maybe in our dreams in the future our companies can buy Ryanair, Lufthansa, BA, KLM-Air France ... AND WE WILL RULE THE SKIES!!!!

Share the sky! Many happy landings!!!

Post by **sn26567** » 31 Oct 2003, 08:42

Dorfmeister wrote:On the other hand, as some have already stated before, it's not a bad thing to have 2 "main" companies in Bru.

Even in "big" France it seems impossible to have 2 "main" companies. Air France will devore all competitors (UTA, Air Inter, Brit Air, Regional) or kill them (AOM, AirLib). Why two companies in small Belgium?

Dorfmeister wrote:Why? 'Cause... a monopolistic' situation is never good, and EU does not seem to like this a lot.

The best way to avoid a monopoly on a route is to have two competing airlines on that route, one from each of the countries. But the codeshare agreement signed by SN BA on such routes prevents competition on most of them (Athens and London Heathrow being the exceptions).

Dorfmeister wrote:So, to my humble opinion, the best and the most efficient, would be a kind of agreement, between VEX and SN, with a non "concurrence" (sorry, I don't remember the english word) clause. While VEX will be taking his share of "leisure" lines, and SN the "business" one.

That seems difficult to implement. The EU does not like non-competition clauses. And VEX is now aiming at business travel: see the new schedules to Bordeaux, the €10 supplement for a seat with more leg room, the new (paying) D'Lish meals, etc.

Dorfmeister wrote:If they play it smart, both of them could be 1) Profitable 2) just big enough to have their own niche and can't let some bigger player come in and eat the market... What d'you think of it?

Well, Benjamin, I think I expressed clearly my opinion.