The SNBA fleet will not be renewed before 2010 !

airazurxtror · Post by **airazurxtror** » 14 Apr 2006, 12:25

See detailed information: https://www.aviation24.be/article11496.html

Let's wait for 4 more years with our good old 146!
Not what you would call a dynamic company, is it ?
(After all, it should well take the SABENA name again : same spirit of enterprise...)
And why is it not possible to buy new planes now ? Are the perspective so bad the banks won't lend them any money ?

teddybAIR · Post by **teddybAIR** » 14 Apr 2006, 12:36

Managing an airliner is about much more than simply thinking about growing the fleet. That last thing is something we aviation enthousiast would want to see, but is not necessarily the best for an airline to survive in the long term. Let's thus be happy that we'll still have an airline that will (hopefully) be in good financial health for the decades to come.

greatings,
bAIR

Stij · Post by **Stij** » 14 Apr 2006, 12:42

I can give you a few reasons that aren't linked to the financial health of the company

Let's first work out the merger of SNBA and VEX?
Apart from the 146-200 and maybe the 333 the fleet isn't that old?
The order books of the manufacturers are well filled and leasing recent Airbus and Boeing planes is very expensive?

Buying planes is IMHO not something you do overnight. It's something you do when your business plan is set up and stable and as a result you KNOW what you're going to do and what you need in order to do it. I think SNBA, VEX and the merged company are still doing that homework and thus it's a very wise decision not to decide on a new fleet if a new one is needed!

Cheers,

Stij

teach · Post by **teach** » 14 Apr 2006, 13:19

After all, it should well take the SABENA name again : same spirit of enterprise...

Um, I'm not sure which Sabena you're talking about, but the one I remember had the exact opposite 'spirit of enterprise', i.e. "Let's buy a trainload of planes that we don't really need and can't actually afford, and worry about paying them and putting them to use when we get there..."

Buzz · Post by **Buzz** » 14 Apr 2006, 13:29

They don't even know what NewCo will look like, so why buy new planes?
I expect them to order new planes ca. 2008, for delivery starting 2010-2012. By then they'll have decided wich planes they'll need, and how many... (hopefully)

teddybAIR · Post by **teddybAIR** » 14 Apr 2006, 13:31

Hi teach,

I agree that SABENA was never managed in the best possible way, but the 'spirit of enterprise' you're referring to is the one where decisions where not made by SN itself, but by whoever owned it at that time. They did this in several ways (both direct and indirect) misleading personell, management, media, public opinion, politicians. Basically, they took advantage of their knowledge of business in general and aviation business specifically, to fool everybody involved. The end of the story? Everybody knows...

Buzz · Post by **Buzz** » 14 Apr 2006, 13:32

airazurxtror wrote:Let's wait for 4 more years with our good old 146!
Not what you would call a dynamic company, is it ?
(After all, it should well take the SABENA name again : same spirit of enterprise...)

I'd say it's the oposite...
If they'd order 34 airbus a32x aircraft and some long haul planes right now, now that would be the same spirit of enterprise

Would drive the company straight into the ground, just like it did with Sabena...

teach · Post by **teach** » 14 Apr 2006, 15:54

I agree that SABENA was never managed in the best possible way, but the 'spirit of enterprise' you're referring to is the one where decisions where not made by SN itself, but by whoever owned it at that time.

Sure, it accellerated under SR management, but it had always been there to a certain extent. SN always wanted the latest shiny new planes, whether they needed them or not. Why else did they buy 747s? Prestige, not need! I remember reading Godfroid's book on his years at SN: when he aarived there, SN had just taken delivery of a new 747 (OO-SGD) they had no idea what to do with! Let's not place all the blame with SR: remember that SN had been losing money for 35 years straight (with one or two exceptions) by the time SR took over.

teddybAIR · Post by **teddybAIR** » 14 Apr 2006, 16:02

I agree,

That is exactly why i mentionned that it was "never managed in the best possible way". Rumour has it that Sabena at the time expressed it's interest for the concorde (I believe it was for 2 aircraft). Luckily it stayed with the rumour or we would have lost our national carrier a few years earlier i think.

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 14 Apr 2006, 16:17

It is good to ask questions, but please ask interesting ones! It is getting really boring to see this topic on the Avro Rjs come back every so many months. An entirely new fleet would be spectacular news indeed, but running an airline is more than continuously ordering scores of new planes: not every airline is an Emirates you know?

What is however an interesting topic to discuss, and maybe a spokesman for SN might want to answer this one here (because it was bounced back by management only recently during a meeting) is why SN says the perfect long haul plane should have around 220 seats, yet are INCREASING the seating capacity of their apparently too large A330s (currently undergoing a full cabin refurbishment in ZRH) by taking out the small second business class compartiment and replacing it with more economy seats????

And secondly, which modern (by 2010 standards) long haul plane has -according to Mr Burrows- a standard seating capacity of merely 220 pax in a NORMAL 2 (and I stress TWO) class configuration?

I think a meeting with both Boeing and Airbus would indeed be a good thing for Mr Burrows, because he clearly has no idea of what is available from both manufacturers for the long haul market and it shows when he speeks out about it!

Post by **sn26567** » 14 Apr 2006, 16:51

tolipanebas wrote:I think a meeting with both Boeing and Airbus would indeed be a good thing for Mr Burrows, because he clearly has no idea of what is available from both manufacturers for the long haul market and it shows when he speeks out about it!

Coming from VEX, this is not surprising...

fly · Post by **fly** » 14 Apr 2006, 18:13

tolipanebas wrote:
And secondly, which modern (by 2010 standards) long haul plane has -according to Mr Burrows- a standard seating capacity of merely 220 pax in a NORMAL 2 (and I stress TWO) class configuration?

yes , there is one that I know of the 787-800 210-250 seating capacity, deliveries start in 2008-9
and if they want to reduce capacity now they can go for the A310 or 767 derivate until the launche and possible delivery date of the 787-8

C_J · Post by **C_J** » 14 Apr 2006, 18:49

I think this is a good decision. There are other priorities at this moment.

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 14 Apr 2006, 19:03

I think some members have to go back to earth, they think when a decision is fallen to buy new aircrafts they will land the day after at BRU. Come on.

Like C-J says, this company have other priorities now. They have to re-schedule the European timetable, they are flying in deep red and the goal of SNBA is to go back in black figures, but this will take some years. Only 40 destinations in Europe will stay.

The "possible" new transatlantic flights will need extra aircrafts but if you don't know where to fly it's ridiculous to lease aircrafts at this moment.

So it's very normal SNBA says that "new" aircrafts will arrive in a couple of years.

teach · Post by **teach** » 14 Apr 2006, 19:05

Rumour has it that Sabena at the time expressed it's interest for the concorde (I believe it was for 2 aircraft)

That's not just a rumour, and they did more than just express their interest: SN actually took options for two Concordes in 1965! Here's what it would've looked like:

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 14 Apr 2006, 20:35

fly wrote:there is one that I know of:
the 787-800, 210-250 seating capacity, deliveries start in 2008-9 and if they want to reduce capacity now they can go for the A310 or 767 derivate until the launche and possible delivery date of the 787-8.

220 is the seat number for a a luxurious 3 class configuration, but in a standard two class configuration with only a small business section like SN is installing on their A330s now, even the 787-8 will seat considerably more pax than the 220 seats Mr Burrows wants!

SN seems to be looking for something really odd which neither Airbus nor Boeing have... unless they 'modernize' their fleet with 15 to 20 year old A310s/767-200s???

Make it a 250 seater and you have ample choice! Anyway, this is just a purely technical discussion; don't expect anything on this front before the end of 2007/ early 2008 at the earliest.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 14 Apr 2006, 21:52

I've just put 2 euro's on www make.a.bet-which.planes-SN-will.buy.com for:

ERJ 170/190

737-900ER

A350

fly · Post by **fly** » 15 Apr 2006, 09:23

I will bet on

RRJ (Russian Regional Jet) RRJ 90 to replace the AVRO's in 2010

737 fleet to replace old 737 and A319 2008-2009

787-8 to replace the longhaul , also past 2010

C_J · Post by **C_J** » 15 Apr 2006, 12:13

I don't know whether a RRJ is a good bet.

Let us stick to the real meaning of this topic (not gambling), the fleet renewal betting is perhaps a good poll.

Andries · Post by **Andries** » 15 Apr 2006, 12:22

fly wrote:I will bet on
RRJ (Russian Regional Jet) RRJ 90 to replace the AVRO's in 2010

If you've got money enough and want to get rid of some, than this is what you have to do ... No way is SNBA going to buy Russian jets. Don't forget about Public Opinion. Russian Jets are still considered as unsafe by the average traveler. If SNBA would buy these, they would only cut themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the RRJ's with SNBa, but it is never going to happen !

Greetz,

Andries

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The SNBA fleet will not be renewed before 2010 !

The SNBA fleet will not be renewed before 2010 !

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