The merger of SNBA-TV

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Vinnie-Winnie
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Post by Vinnie-Winnie »

Tommypilot wrote:Look at the position of VLM airlines now, its still possible, no?
Hehe Although they might have the Belgian (Flemish :wink: ) flag they are more or less British nowadays! And everybody knows that the market is entirely different over there!

LJ wrote:Needless to say image is valuable and I wonder how the new company wants to be perceived, is it a high service airline or a low service/low fare airline? You can't be both in the eyes of the customer.
100% agree with you! Look at BMI they are in tatters nowadays! High cost no frills airlines don't work especially if your financial situation is already so poor...

757Mech
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Post by 757Mech »

LJ wrote:It looks like I'm probably the only one who isn't very positive about this new merger. Especially the idea to create a "low cost" section and a business section in the same plane can't be seen as a positive. It'looks to me as a downgrade of the current SN product.
I flown last year for the first time with VEX after years of flying with major carriers in Europe and honest, for me never again if it would be in my private time...
What I wont to say is when they offer that service in the SN fleet it is a surious donwgrade of their operation because I like to fly with SN, very good service, maybe they fly a bit slow (Avro/BAe), but for the rest their are very good...

Anyway the whole thing, the merger, the name change I hope It goes well but...there are still a lot of questions and doubts...
Maybe typical Belgian aviation policy, lets try...


R
Last edited by 757Mech on 02 Apr 2006, 21:54, edited 1 time in total.

OO-VEX
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Post by OO-VEX »

What I wont to say is when they offer that service in the SN fleet it is a surious donwgrade of their operation because I like to fly with SN, very good service, maybe they fly a bit slow (Avro/BAe), but for the rest their are very good...
As the new merged SN-V airline will offer 2 classes onboard of their airplanes, you will still be able to enjoy their service :!:
They will have a low-cost class for leisure pax and one with service and flexibility for business people. But that does not mean it will be a C-class seat like SN is offering today. We have to wait and see what exactly the service will be, but you can be sure that prices won't be the same as a real business class.

OO-VEX

757Mech
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Post by 757Mech »

OO-VEX wrote:But that does not mean it will be a C-class seat like SN is offering today. We have to wait and see what exactly the service will be, but you can be sure that prices won't be the same as a real business class.
OO-VEX
OO-VEX
That's just my concern, if you take know the existing economy at the SN fleet, you have a small service, enough legroom for an affortable price.

In the possible new configuration, the people that were happy to pay that more for such a service, have to pay for service a lot more, mostly they will not do that and are now "as a regular non business SN customer" obligatory to take the no frills seat with most possible less legroom as before...
Those people that are willing to pay a bit more for a comfortable journey are most possible go to other options and yes maybe other airlines...

And the business-man will pay for the derated business-class no problem, money isn't a problem there, and they aren't go away or the service has to be that bad...

My conclusion out of this merger and businessplan is that the new company is looking to attract the ryanair clients and forget there old clients just because they aren't possible to get there plains full with them, or haven't money to get a new aircraft types, smaller ones that will be full and profitable and less consuming than the Avro/BAe fleet...

R

PS OO-VEX: I fly just mostly business for work, personal I am one of those that are willing to pay for some service, but haven't the money for business seats or derated ones...

And yes we have to wait and see...
I'm just have a bad feeling about that merger...

airbuske
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Post by airbuske »

I was at the airport yesterday and I heard
some people saying : look Sabena is arriving
or departing so Sabena is still alive for some
people.


I took a new timetable at the SNBA
desk and now the timetable from SNBA
and VEX are together.

What will be the first step from the merger
that we will see ?
Best regards,

Airbuske

OO-VEX
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Post by OO-VEX »

LJ wrote:It looks like I'm probably the only one who isn't very positive about this new merger. Especially the idea to create a "low cost" section and a business section in the same plane can't be seen as a positive. It looks to me as a downgrade of the current SN product. Moreover as the few high paying economy pax don't want to pay their premiums anymore and thus yields on the new airline will go down. Needless to say image is valuable and I wonder how the new company wants to be perceived, is it a high service airline or a low service/low fare airline? You can't be both in the eyes of the customer.
I understand your concern regarding a downgrade of the service, but what if the new airline is able to keep the same service level as they offer today in their economy class? It is only my opinion, but I believe they still want to serve their economy pax of today. That class could be described as the premium class, for business people. The empty seats can be sold to price sensitive pax in a low-cost class. Some of you think that economy passengers of today will fly the low-cost class tomorrow and they can be right about that. But what if the airline decides to open only 10-20% of the seats for their low-cost class on business routes? That would mean that cheap seats will be sold fast and that all other pax only have the chance to buy a more expensive ticket with service. ( I don't mean at C-class prices, but at let's say the price of a regular Y ticket today). That would mean, that SN is able to keep the yields high enough and fill up the seats they don't sell today with cheap tickets. One thing seems to be sure, the new airline wants higher loads and maybe those are high enough to cope with the lower yield which can be expected because of not having a real C-class product anylonger.
Concerning the image, I believe that many airlines have more than 1 image. An airline with economy, business and even first class, has different service levels according to the class. By offering different classes they attract different kind of passengers, each with their own profile and desires. This makes me believe that even an airline as AF/KL has more than 1 image depending of the booking class. The new airline can have a full service perception for their premium class as the publicity for these seats won't be the same as for their low-fare pax. We'll have to wait and see how the new airline wants to be percepted. I only want to say that 1 class only airlines do only have 1 image.
LJ wrote:Finally, I wonder why they merge a more business full service airline with a more leisure oriented airline. If you look at the VEX route structure you have to agree that they have a totally diferent focus than SN. Thus if you merge you must either choose between the SN or VEX focus. Both would be stupid as leisure routes have different requirements than business routes (there is a reason why AF/KL still have Transavia and haven't merged it). In the end the best solution would have been to have both airlines in the air and follow the same principle AF/KL has followed, one airline for leisure oriented travel, one for the business destinations. Added bonus would be that you could have two sets of employee benefits and cover (and/or dominate) the entire Belgian aviation market.
I don't think you can compare the new airline to AF/KL flying from CDG/AMS. The BRU market is smaller, for both business and leisure pax. The new airline will be able to focus on both, which seems to be strange. But right now SN has an overcapacity during the summer season, when a lot of the business travellers are enjoying their holiday. TV on the other hand needs extra capacity during the summer to fly BRU pax to their holiday destinations. One company can deal better with these seasons, offcourse if they plan it well. As it is up to the management to make it work, let's see if they can succeed. I agree with you that leisure routes have other requirements than business routes. But by having 2 classes, they can still offer the best product to the market. The airline knows that they don't have to expect a lot of business travelers on those leisure routes and therefore I would suggest they open about 90% of the seats available in the low-cost class. It is just 1 airplane, the same seats, it is all just about moving the curtain and they should be able to monitor which seats are needed on each flight. One new airline can easily swith seasons and prevent things like this: TV leasing an SN plane during the summer, where TV's low-fare pax do get a full service flight contrary to other TV operated flights.

At this moment we don't know much about the new airline, but I only gave my reaction as there is also another possibility of how the new airline can work. We'll have to wait and see what future brings.

OO-VEX

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bits44
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Post by bits44 »

There are no strangers in the world, just friends we have yet to meet.

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BrightCedars
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Post by BrightCedars »

I've now come to wonder if Etienne Davignon's "Comfort 2" class (this guy needs a communications advisor) could be meaning 6-abreast economy on the ARJs and perhaps 4-abreast (modular?) business, why not even premium economy at 5-abreast? This would automatically create more low-cost seats and could seriously help the bottom line granted they fill those extra seats.

AirDupont
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Post by AirDupont »

BTW before I get flamed of being against good pay of airline employees, I'm for good pay. However I don't want to close my eyes for this problem as I don't have the feeling VEX staff gets equal pay compared to SN staff (which may be a wrong assumption).


VEX pilots get a better pay then SN pilots.
For the cabin crew there's a different calculation concerning the pay. SN have nightstops + long haul, that's where they make better money.
So yes, a wrong assumption.

AFApresident
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Post by AFApresident »

The airline needs to be carefull though.


If you lower your fares to attract the price sensitive customers .. it is very well possible that your otherwise high yieling pax take the low fares as well. In that case they don't pay the higher fares and your plane gets filled with only low yielding pax.


Sometimes it is better to fly your plane with a 70% load on which pax have paid a reasonable price.. than try to fill it for 100% .. and in the end notice that your total revenue is lower than with 70%.



Nonetheless good luck to SN/VEX!

teddybAIR
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Post by teddybAIR »

In all honesty, my major concern in this whole story is 'the consistent lack of consistency". When listening to Davignon and reading and hearing a lot in the press, one gets the idea that what they aim for is creating a brand in the Belgian aviation industry...well people, creating a brand is about taking away confusion and drawing an extremely clear picture of what your company stands for. The customer hears the name and immediately gets the point, that's a brand.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that what they are trying to do right now is coming up with a 'compromis-à-la-belge' offering both cheap and high profile services on the same flight. Well, my question is: How will they communicate this clearly to customers? How will the average Belgian (not us aviation enthousiasts) get this picture? I wish them good luck in their quest, but fear the worst for such a concept in the longer term...admit: suppose you're looking for cheap fares and you have the choice between a 100% low fare airline and a hybrid, which one will you choose? Now suppose you're looking for a full service airline and you have to choose between a real full service or a hybrid? Get the point? My fear is that in the longer term, they will create an opening for two airlines with a clear offering on each side of the spectrum and end up 'stuck in the middle' themselves, just as grey as any mouse, not jumping out the mass at all.

Don't get me wrong, this is not what I hope for, on the contrary: it is what I fear when I interprete all this with a critical mind...

Just my 2 cents though

greetz

bAIR

killerwhale65
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Post by killerwhale65 »

OO-VEX wrote: It is just 1 airplane, the same seats, it is all just about moving the curtain and they should be able to monitor which seats are needed on each flight.
Wasn't the "premium class" supposed to have more legroom? How will they do that with only a curtain? Won't they need a fixed % of low-cost and a fixed % of premium seats?
Matthias Thoen
MicroWings - Aviation Hobby Store

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blackhawk
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Post by blackhawk »

SNWebbie has changed the header of flysn.com: http://www.flysn.be/en%5Fbe/home/

Image

OO-VEX
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Post by OO-VEX »

killerwhale65 wrote:
OO-VEX wrote: It is just 1 airplane, the same seats, it is all just about moving the curtain and they should be able to monitor which seats are needed on each flight.
Wasn't the "premium class" supposed to have more legroom? How will they do that with only a curtain? Won't they need a fixed % of low-cost and a fixed % of premium seats?
Offering more legroom for premium pax implies they have to change the interior and number of seats on all their Avro's and Boeings. Will they really go that far? That would cost a lot of €€€. I wouldn't go for a fixed number of seats in both classes, this enables the airline to control the capacity on each market, which should also have a impact on their yields.

OO-VEX

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sn26567
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Post by sn26567 »

SpicyJet wrote:Well guys, way too much expectations/useless speculations on this forum. Sabena name will NEVER come back.
How can you be so sure about it?
André
ex Sabena #26567

Ovostar
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Post by Ovostar »

who said that the name Sabena will be back ? i thought it was an april 1st joke

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lumumba
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Post by lumumba »

Hi everybody.
I can tel you that for poeple in Congo it's stil SABENA and the same in Angola or Cameroun.
Regards
Patrice
Hasta la victoria siempre.

EBAW_flyer
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Post by EBAW_flyer »

Well, the business class product on the current SNBA has just the same legroom than in economy. It's just a matter of moving the curtain.

b-west

Post by b-west »

lumumba wrote:Hi everybody.
I can tel you that for poeple in Congo it's stil SABENA and the same in Angola or Cameroun.
Regards
Patrice
I think almost the entire world still uses Sabena...

A320joske
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Post by A320joske »

who said that the name Sabena will be back ? i thought it was an april 1st joke
A swiss making such a quote...man, don't you feel the irony?? :D

Just a very funny post I thought!

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