The merger of SNBA-TV

vliegtuigfreak · Post by **vliegtuigfreak** » 01 Apr 2006, 16:50

Seems like a very good colorsheme in my eyes. Although the S on the tail could be bigger.

Greetingzz
Sonny

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 01 Apr 2006, 17:05

Sabena_690 wrote:@harry_spotter: is that an April fool's joke about the S-Tail?

I heard exactly the opposite yesterday...

Frederic

Thanks for your input Fred. I already thought that I didn't listen the correct news channel yesterday evening

I have the impression that many people get very emotional and over excited about all this news.

Chris

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 01 Apr 2006, 17:18

Avro wrote:
Sabena_690 wrote:@harry_spotter: is that an April fool's joke about the S-Tail?

I heard exactly the opposite yesterday...

Frederic
Thanks for your input Fred. I already thought that I didn't listen the correct news channel yesterday evening

I have the impression that many people get very emotional and over excited about all this news.

Chris

Finally, Thanks Chris. Sometimes I think people will hear what they wanted to hear. That's why I posted yesterday a message to calm down and not overreacting about this. It seems that rumours get an own live here.

Put only facts here and not speculations about a new name, livery, etc or we are saying still the same at page 25 of this topic.

They wont tell us till the time is right.

SabenaRebirth · Post by **SabenaRebirth** » 01 Apr 2006, 17:31

Atlantis wrote:
Put only facts here and not speculations about a new name, livery, etc or we are saying still the same at page 25 of this topic.

I thought this was a forum for aviation-enthousiasts? Apparently not...?

What's wrong with speculations and/or dreams?

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 01 Apr 2006, 17:38

SabenaRebirth wrote:
I thought this was a forum for aviation-enthousiasts? Apparently not...?

What's wrong with speculations and/or dreams?

There is nothing wrong with some speculations, which can lead to interesting discussions. But over reaction combined with a lot of dreams and wishful thinking just ruins a sain discussion.

There is certainly room for many different interesting discussion aorund that topic. So let's start those discussions

Chris

website-info · Post by **website-info** » 01 Apr 2006, 17:45

Guys,

Just my 0.02c worth......... was there not an 'unofficial' agreement between Virgin Express and Easyjet not to compete (hence EZY do not fly here in BRU) as long as Virgin exist .... now if the name dissappears in March 2007 maybe just maybe we see Captain Orange arrive and then we really will get cheap cheap prices - come on Macquarie get you act in place and get a real LCC flying to BRU

T

airazurxtror · Post by **airazurxtror** » 01 Apr 2006, 18:51

It's a bit strange to see the name "Sabena" so much favored in all the regions of Belgium.
SABENA is the shortcut for "Société Anonyme Belge pour l'Exploitation de la Navigation Aérienne" - in French (not very nice, but undeniable): it dates back to the pre-war times, when there was much less attention given to the languages...

harry_spotter2 · Post by **harry_spotter2** » 01 Apr 2006, 19:14

I don't understand why some people on this website always think they know everything and always discredit others. The goal is to inform and share information and it can sometimes be wrong information. So I m sorry for wanting to share information wiht you... I am not dreaming or anything, I just reported what I had heard. Next time I won't say anything...I thought we had a nice discussion here...

b-west · Post by **b-west** » 01 Apr 2006, 19:24

airazurxtror wrote:It's a bit strange to see the name "Sabena" so much favored in all the regions of Belgium.
SABENA is the shortcut for "Société Anonyme Belge pour l'Exploitation de la Navigation Aérienne" - in French (not very nice, but undeniable): it dates back to the pre-war times, when there was much less attention given to the languages...

I think "Sabena" wasn't seen as an abbreviation anymore, it came to exist as a word on its own... And it's easy in the mouth, pronouncable all over the world in every language

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 01 Apr 2006, 19:51

SabenaRebirth wrote:
Atlantis wrote:
Put only facts here and not speculations about a new name, livery, etc or we are saying still the same at page 25 of this topic.

I thought this was a forum for aviation-enthousiasts? Apparently not...?

What's wrong with speculations and/or dreams?

There is certainly place for discussions, but when everyone is saying the same then there is no discussion.

But in all these discussions I didn't hear nothing about the good results of last year: a net profit of 12 million euro. That's really good for a Belgian airline.

And what about the possibilities when they are going to increase the long haul fleet with 2 or 3 airplanes?

It's maybe interesting to start that discussion.

ATC · Post by **ATC** » 01 Apr 2006, 21:05

But in all these discussions I didn't hear nothing about the good results of last year: a net profit of 12 million euro. That's really good for a Belgian airline.

Nobody mentioned they made a net profit of 12 million...

reactions ?

ATC

I quote myself... Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:22 pm

Indeed I find it very disappointing that a year ago it was world news that SN made a 2 million profit. This year I'm the only one (together with Atlantis) who find it important enough to mention that SN made a 12 million profit !

Stop dreaming... and wake up. Maybe we should start a "dream topic" and a "discuss the facts topic" concerning this merger.

ATC

757Mech · Post by **757Mech** » 01 Apr 2006, 21:07

Atlantis wrote: But in all these discussions I didn't hear nothing about the good results of last year: a net profit of 12 million euro. That's really good for a Belgian airline.

And what about the possibilities when they are going to increase the long haul fleet with 2 or 3 airplanes?

It's maybe interesting to start that discussion.

It's certainly not a bad result but you have to see where the profits come from...not from the European business...

And then plans expand the long haul...
I should first look at the short and medium haul fleet, where the problems are...
For exemple their you have a quite old fleet

A330 average 12,1 years old
BAe146 average 15,3 years old
Avro average 8.6 years old
A319 average 5,6 years old
SN fleet average 9.8 years
B737-300 fleet 9.3 years old
B737-400 fleet 13.9 years old
Virgin fleet average 11.6 years old

For the low cost I see no problem to use the B737s and BAe/Avro
But for the full service arm of the airline I think it will be good to renew it within a few years..... (and this will be maybe better together with the new name, than to take the cost to repaint the hole fleet...)

And also if you now that the 319 fleet possibly will dissapaer end this year and the lease of the Avro/BAe end within 3 to 5 years I don't think it's is wise to put your profits into a new market (long haul) where you don't know if it will work (let's hope it works! don't get me wrong...)
It's maybe better to put your profits into the part of the airline where you need it, to make it strong aigain, competetive...
And then when everthing is going wright and the new name is accepted and more know to customers then you can look further...

just my opinion

R

airazurxtror · Post by **airazurxtror** » 01 Apr 2006, 21:21

But in all these discussions I didn't hear nothing about the good results of last year: a net profit of 12 million euro. That's really good for a Belgian airline.

According to "Le Soir" of to-day :

Together, SNBA and Virgin have actually made a net 2005 profit of 12 millions Euros, but this profit is entirely due to non-recurrent financial operations - amongst whom is the exceptional 12 million dividend paid by the late Sabena coordination centre.

Financial manager Michel Meyfroidt said "It is true that, without those exceptional elements, there would have been no profit."

With too many concurrents, the European net is not profitable - the African net is, but not enough to fill the other losses.

Without cashing any exceptional elements any more, the group has to be somehow profitable, keeping in mind that the European sector will generate no profit for at least a few years. That won't be easy, said Etienne Davignon...

SN_fan · Post by **SN_fan** » 01 Apr 2006, 22:58

SabenaRebirth wrote:Wouldn't this be great to see in Zaventem in 2007:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attach ... ntid=22931

:jump:

I really like this colorsheme
I hope they will take the same for the "new" company.

Post by **sn26567** » 02 Apr 2006, 10:32

FlyA330 wrote:And the €12 M Euro profit?? It's thanks to a devidend of SIC that was paid and some nice tricks that SNBA made a profit.

Correct: the profit is not recurrent and comes only from the exceptional dividend that SIC (Sabena Coordinating Centre) paid to DAT after the sale of Sabena Hotels and Sabena Technics. A lot of efforts ae still needed to get a positive balance sheet!

AFApresident · Post by **AFApresident** » 02 Apr 2006, 11:37

And also if you now that the 319 fleet possibly will dissapaer end this year and the lease of the Avro/BAe end within 3 to 5 years I don't think it's is wise to put your profits into a new market (long haul) where you don't know if it will work (let's hope it works! don't get me wrong...)
It's maybe better to put your profits into the part of the airline where you need it, to make it strong aigain, competetive...
And then when everthing is going wright and the new name is accepted and more know to customers then you can look further...

This is exactly why they need to further expand into the long haul business (Africa, maybe some Asian destinations too).

Otherwise they'll never be able to write their profit/loss account in black ink.

SpicyJet · Post by **SpicyJet** » 02 Apr 2006, 11:49

Well guys, way too much expectations/useless speculations on this forum. Sabena name will NEVER come back.
What's silly in this case, is that all of this should have happened in 2002 when VEX and DAT had held merger talks. They have lost four years and have to rebuild and new name and product for apr 2007. But about friday's press/staff conference:
First, NB insisted that this year's profit was down to exceptional elements, which they won't have for long.
Secondly, SN has to improve the "production" of the the RJ fleet. Strangely not a word of the A319's productivity which is quite poor.
Simply sad that SN's board keeps on having the same speech for years about the long haul's developpement. "We've had exceptionnal leasing rates 4 years ago for the three A330's and now they are twice higher... so it's simply impossible for us to have a fourth aircraft..." It's not with such thoughts that you are gonna be a winner. SN is dreaming as they will NEVER have the same leasing rates again

Of course the leasing were very cheap in jan 2002, 4 months after 9/11 !!!
Another strange thing in my mind, why do they talk about possible new routes to North America and not a single word about India, Asia, China,... ???
Finally, I would say that SN's future is with a global alliance. They have lost TONS of business pax in Europe because of their weak position with frequent flyers. Privilege is just good when you want to reedem miles on SN's routes. Try once with AA, BA or IB... I wish you good luck !! And by the way what a mistake from Davignon to compare the new products to Comfort 1-2 of Thalys...

Let's keep fingers crossed and I wish good luck to the "NewCo". Let's still hope that ambitious aviation business can be done in Belgium.

LJ · Post by LJ » 02 Apr 2006, 16:55

It looks like I'm probably the only one who isn't very positive about this new merger. Especially the idea to create a "low cost" section and a business section in the same plane can't be seen as a positive. It looks to me as a downgrade of the current SN product. I don't have the feeling that the cost structure (read pay and other employee benefits) of VEX will be adopted, I wonder how SN (or whatever it will called) can make a profit. Moreover as the few high paying economy pax don't want to pay their premiums anymore and thus yields on the new airline will go down. Needless to say image is valuable and I wonder how the new company wants to be perceived, is it a high service airline or a low service/low fare airline? You can't be both in the eyes of the customer.

Another interesting part of the merger is what will happen with the VEX staff. If (and given the fact that I'm not familiar with the difference between VEX and SN employee benefits, this is a assumption of mine) the merger takes plays and employee benefits will become identical (at least that's what I assume), what will happen to the yield of the VEX routes?? VEX routes are not as business focussed as SN routes thus if costs go up, the profit goes down.

Finally, I wonder why they merge a more business full service airline with a more leisure oriented airline. If you look at the VEX route structure you have to agree that they have a totally diferent focus than SN. Thus if you merge you must either choose between the SN or VEX focus. Both would be stupid as leisure routes have different requirements than business routes (there is a reason why AF/KL still have Transavia and haven't merged it). In the end the best solution would have been to have both airlines in the air and follow the same principle AF/KL has followed, one airline for leisure oriented travel, one for the business destinations. Added bonus would be that you could have two sets of employee benefits and cover (and/or dominate) the entire Belgian aviation market.

BTW before I get flamed of being against good pay of airline employees, I'm for good pay. However I don't want to close my eyes for this problem as I don't have the feeling VEX staff gets equal pay compared to SN staff (which may be a wrong assumption). Maybe unfamiliar for many but the reason why AF/KL still have Transavia is that they can compete in the leisure market where yields are low and thus are able to pay their employees lower wages (and other benefits) than KL staff.

Tommypilot · Post by **Tommypilot** » 02 Apr 2006, 17:10

I mostly agree with the last two posts...thats the same "idea" I have too.

However, I hope there will be a future again in Belgian aviation...fingers crossed. Its going to be hard, we all know that.
We have to be realistic (something we weren't really during the Sabena era) and wait before we say something, even if we "know" future plans...

Look at the position of VLM airlines now, its still possible, no?

Jense · Post by **Jense** » 02 Apr 2006, 17:18

Sssssttttt before some "SN fanboys" wake up when they see these (realistic, don't get me wrong) replies...