Ryanair flight lands at wrong UK airfield

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 30 Mar 2006, 13:46

letscruise wrote:We are all humans and born to make mistakes.
This could happen to anyone, this crew had just very bad luck.
Don't throw the first stone.
Of course it is easy to blame, just be glad it didn't happen to you.....

Allow me to disagree. If pilots are allowed to make mistakes, I won't fly anymore. "Bad luck" is not supposed to be in our aviation vocabulary. The only error that can be accepted in this case, was that the crew lost ILS.

letscruise · Post by **letscruise** » 30 Mar 2006, 14:04

Yes LX-LGX, of course the crew made a mistake, the only thing I wanted to say is that nobody is exempted and that it's unfair to jump to fast into
unproven facts.

Tommypilot · Post by **Tommypilot** » 30 Mar 2006, 14:05

LX-LGX wrote:
letscruise wrote:We are all humans and born to make mistakes.
This could happen to anyone, this crew had just very bad luck.
Don't throw the first stone.
Of course it is easy to blame, just be glad it didn't happen to you.....
Allow me to disagree. If pilots are allowed to make mistakes, I won't fly anymore. "Bad luck" is not supposed to be in our aviation vocabulary. The only error that can be accepted in this case, was that the crew lost ILS.

I mostly agree but I also agree with the first sentence by letscruise "We are all humans and born to make mistakes".
A pilot CAN make a mistake but why do you think they are minimum with two up there? To work together as a team (is not always the case I know) and to check and crosscheck and check again everything.

I just cannot understand that you can land at a wrong airport with such a modern plane...

jelger · Post by **jelger** » 30 Mar 2006, 14:18

letscruise wrote:We are all humans and born to make mistakes.
This could happen to anyone, this crew had just very bad luck.
Don't throw the first stone.
Of course it is easy to blame, just be glad it didn't happen to you.....

so.. it is also OK to crash-land a plane in the jungle due to human faults?

what an excuse!

bad luck? no, bad attention !!

since when is bad luck involved when it comes to navigating where the facts are straight out??

yes, it can happen, no, there are no excuses.

I just cannot understand that you can land at a wrong airport with such a modern plane...

on top of that... if they have the paperworks in their head and in their hands, then they can see on VISION that the lay out of the airport at approach is NOT the same as the one they should be at....

relying on technology makes people allowing to let mistakes happen...

letscruise · Post by **letscruise** » 30 Mar 2006, 15:19

jelger wrote:
letscruise wrote:We are all humans and born to make mistakes.
This could happen to anyone, this crew had just very bad luck.
Don't throw the first stone.
Of course it is easy to blame, just be glad it didn't happen to you.....
so.. it is also OK to crash-land a plane in the jungle due to human faults?

what an excuse!

bad luck? no, bad attention !! since when is bad luck involved when it comes to navigating where the facts are straight out??

yes, it can happen, no, there are no excuses.
I just cannot understand that you can land at a wrong airport with such a modern plane...
on top of that... if they have the paperworks in their head and in their hands, then they can see on VISION that the lay out of the airport at approach is NOT the same as the one they should be at....

relying on technology makes people allowing to let mistakes happen...

No, but once again nobody is infallible. Don’t put yourself above it…
Mistakes are made for a number of reasons:
•Ignorance - Ignorance is the lack of education or training.
•Negligence - Negligence is the failure to perform a task which should be well known and/or obvious.
•Stress - Stress is very common in aviation. Stress is caused by many factors, mostly from the desire to perform to perceived expectations. Stress often leads to fatigue and health problems.
•Fatigue - Fatigue is the desire to rest. It often occurs when stress levels are high.
In this particular case to my opinion it’s a combination negligence and stress.
Aviation is safe, but it should be noted that in aviation there is little room for mistakes. Gravity is very unforgiving.
But making mistakes is human.

Tommypilot · Post by **Tommypilot** » 30 Mar 2006, 15:57

jelger wrote:
relying on technology makes people allowing to let mistakes happen...

Sorry but I have to disagree...its basically due to the advanced technology that many planes (of certain companies) did not crash yet. (sorry to say by this)

Don't forget that it is due to the technology that the workload of the pilot has been reduced and that he/she has less "stress".

But on the other hand, I understand your opinion too...

The "invention" of the TCAS system has been a real value concerning safety...

earthman · Post by **earthman** » 30 Mar 2006, 16:08

They will send it back to Eirjet in crates. Same goes for the pilots.

Jense · Post by **Jense** » 30 Mar 2006, 16:16

sn26567 wrote:After all, in this case, Ryanair is clearly at fault!

What in hell's name do you have against Ryanair, André?! They are a reliable and safe company and they know what they're doing. It's not because the crew of the A320 flew to the wrong airport, that you have to blame RYR: they can't do anything on it.

Post by **sn26567** » 30 Mar 2006, 16:50

Jense wrote:
sn26567 wrote:After all, in this case, Ryanair is clearly at fault!
What in hell's name do you have against Ryanair, André?! They are a reliable and safe company and they know what they're doing. It's not because the crew of the A320 flew to the wrong airport, that you have to blame RYR: they can't do anything on it.

I have nothing against Ryanair. I had excellent cheap flights with them. My question was: will they compensate the passengers whose flight was cancelled because one of their subcontractors made a mistake? In my view, they should compensate them, and then ask EirJet for a refund.

jelger · Post by **jelger** » 30 Mar 2006, 17:07

Sorry but I have to disagree...its basically due to the advanced technology that many planes (of certain companies) did not crash yet. (sorry to say by this)

one does not have to exclude the other.
i do agree with technology having a major impact on improving flight safety.

at the same time, people TEND to rely on technology and loose SOME attention that they might need.

example.. ABS is a great invention on cars. how does having ABS on board, and being aware of it change the driving behavior (mentally)? SOME people get the notion in their head "i have ABS so nothing can happen to me [in regard to braking]" - sometimes translating that into tailing in bad weathercondition with teh excuse "i have ABS ".

that is what i call fallable relying on technology.

Jense · Post by **Jense** » 30 Mar 2006, 17:15

sn26567 wrote:I have nothing against Ryanair. I had excellent cheap flights with them.

My question was: will they compensate the passengers whose flight was cancelled because one of their subcontractors made a mistake? In my view, they should compensate them, and then ask EirJet for a refund.

I don't think they will. I guess there's only 1 situation when they'll do it: that is when the refund of EirJet is big enough for themselves.

mafrick · Post by **mafrick** » 30 Mar 2006, 17:20

What can I say?

SHIT HAPPENS

maybe they can put that on their aircraft instead of other advertisements?

Tommypilot · Post by **Tommypilot** » 30 Mar 2006, 18:16

jelger wrote:example.. ABS is a great invention on cars. how does having ABS on board, and being aware of it change the driving behavior (mentally)? SOME people get the notion in their head "i have ABS so nothing can happen to me [in regard to braking]" - sometimes translating that into tailing in bad weathercondition with teh excuse "i have ABS ".

that is what i call fallable relying on technology.

Maybe you should visit Maintenance of an airline and talk with the persons overthere because you cannot compare car drivers with pilots!

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 30 Mar 2006, 21:43

This is an incredible mistake and IMHO it's unforgivable to the crew !!! If they can't fly to the correct airport I wonder how accurate and professional they are for the rest of the work. I agree that sh*t happens but going to the wrong airport is extreme. Especially if you know that there are TWO pilots in the cockpit. So 2 set of eyes to analyse the situation ?

Tommypilot wrote:IRS malfunction??

IRS malfunction wouldn't have any effect on that kind of incident. First of all you have several (2 I think on the A320) IRS systems. So if one fails you still have a backup. Secondly you usually navigate on a coupled GPS/INS system (here again I'm not 100% sure for the A320 systems). So in case the INS fails the GPS will take the backup and vice versa.

[/quote]
I don't think its Ryanair's direct fault as this flight was operated by EiJet crew on behalf of RYR...[/quote] Maybe not the direct fault of FR, but in the end it's FR which will need to give some compensations to the pax !!

letscruise wrote:This could happen to anyone, this crew had just very bad luck.

That kind of mistake should not happen POINT. And if it happens, it's simply not because of bad luck, but because of another problem. Whether pilot error or instrument malfunction. But it's not bad luck.

Even if the two runways of the two airports are close to each other. Don't tell me that the pilots will rely on "luck" to land at the correct place.

jelger wrote:on top of that... if they have the paperworks in their head and in their hands, then they can see on VISION that the lay out of the airport at approach is NOT the same as the one they should be at....

relying on technology makes people allowing to let mistakes happen...

Exactly!! Imagine they had the wrong airport coded in systems, but if they had their papar charts in front of them, they should have noticed a wrong layout !! Except if the weather was that bad that visibility was too low to see it

That's why I'd like to see the METAR of that airport at that time of the day if possible.

letscruise wrote:No, but once again nobody is infallible. Don’t put yourself above it…
Mistakes are made for a number of reasons: ........
Aviation is safe, but it should be noted that in aviation there is little room for mistakes.

Here I agree with you letscruise. But what is even more frightening IMHO is that if the crew is in such a "state" to make mistakes like that, I wonder how well they followed the other safety procedures.....

Sorry but I have to disagree...its basically due to the advanced technology that many planes (of certain companies) did not crash yet. (sorry to say by this)

Don't forget that it is due to the technology that the workload of the pilot has been reduced and that he/she has less "stress".

Sorry but I have to disagree with you Tommy !! Yes, new technologies have made aviation safer, Yes they reduced the workload of the pilots, and yes they have avoided crashes. But if you have pilots which are not well trained or pilots which rely too much on their computers without having a critical eye on the situation, then you may end up in a terrible situation as well.

Technologies are great, but you need to know how to work with them !!!

In short: Don't disengage your brain because you have good technologies you can rely on.

Maybe you should visit Maintenance of an airline and talk with the persons overthere because you cannot compare car drivers with pilots!

He did not compare pilots with car drivers. But he made an analogy of a common human behavior !!! Read it again , or look at my reply to your "technology statement" and you'll find the answer.

Now to end, I would like to know if someone could provide us the METAR of that day and hour when it happened !!

Chris

EDITS: Typo's

Tommypilot · Post by **Tommypilot** » 30 Mar 2006, 22:03

Avro wrote:
IRS malfunction wouldn't have any effect on that kind of incident. First of all you have several (2 I think on the A320) IRS systems. So if one fails you still have a backup. Secondly you usually navigate on a coupled GPS/INS system (here again I'm not 100% sure for the A320 systems). So in case the INS fails the GPS will take the backup and vice versa.

The Airbus A320 has 3 IRS systems and they are not all equipped by GPS. (its an option I think)
I agree with you on that one...

About pilots who are not well trained (pls try to find them in Europe) and/or rely too much on their computers (this I can understand however)... I have my doubts. You are with 2 people overthere, and its for a reason...
Sorry, but this mistake should never happen again!

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 30 Mar 2006, 22:17

Tommypilot wrote: About pilots who are not well trained (pls try to find them in Europe) and/or rely too much on their computers (this I can understand however)... I have my doubts. You are with 2 people overthere, and its for a reason...
Sorry, but this mistake should never happen again!

I don't think it's as hard as you think to find less well trained pilots in Europe, but that's another debate. Of course you are with two and of course it should not happen. That's why I clearly said that it was an unforgivable mistake !!!

A_lexander · Post by **A_lexander** » 30 Mar 2006, 23:16

No way this is Ryanair's fault!!

And as for EiJet.....hahaha they are a goner!
No way Ryanair is going to hire them anymore!

regi · Post by **regi** » 31 Mar 2006, 00:43

How much did the passengers had to pay to Ryanair for the busride to the real airport?

Tommypilot · Post by **Tommypilot** » 31 Mar 2006, 09:13

Avro wrote: I don't think it's as hard as you think to find less well trained pilots in Europe, but that's another debate.

Ok, if you are talking about less well trained pilots in stead of not well trained pilots, I can understand you.

About the compensation...Eirjet should pay the compensation and RYR should forward it to the pax.

But the less you pay, the less you...?

earthman · Post by **earthman** » 31 Mar 2006, 14:48

Perhaps Ryanair should indeed make the tickets free and offer on-board gambling as a way to earn money. They should throw in the girls from Hooters Air and the dancing pole too. And a few private cabins. I'm sure it would be a more profitabe business venture than just an airline. Perhaps rename the airline to Sodom & Gomorra Air then.