SN Brussels' expansion in Africa: it may acquire Camair

sn-remember · Post by **sn-remember** » 22 Mar 2006, 14:26

Yep it could be a win-win marriage provided sound management is applied.
So let's cross our fingers and give a chance to what seems to be an innovative venture !

And since we are dreaming a bit, don't forget that besides the much discussed Avro's, there are 11 B737s from VEX that could equally do the job in Cameroon (I know your answers ... ;o)))
Plus lots of aircrafts available for lease ...
However it seems widely premature to discuss fleet composition at this stage.
Also the possible route map is premature..
You shoud'nt forget places like Port-Harcourt in Nigeria or Pointe-Noire or Brazzaville in Congo to mention just a few. Personnally I already can see a lucrative daily bru-dla-jnb but you know I am a big dreamer ;o)

Back to earth ...
If this deal unfortunately fails to materialise, sn should actively consider investing much more deeply from Brussels directly to the african continent. (I repeat this since snba was founded on the ashes of Sabena ...)
My opinion ...

PAA · Post by **PAA** » 22 Mar 2006, 14:56

I dont' mean to drop in with a stupid idea, but if the plan for a new Sobelair materializes, why wouldn't that be for an Africa oriented operation? At the end that'd be back to square one for the 'second' belgian airline. I have nothing to back this up, it is just something that crosssed my mind.

SN_fan · Post by **SN_fan** » 22 Mar 2006, 15:46

When is the decision about who gets the 51 % of CAMAIR

Post by **sn26567** » 22 Mar 2006, 16:37

SN_fan wrote:When is the decision about who gets the 51 % of CAMAIR

If you read this thread from the beginning, you will see in the original articlethat the Cameroon government will take a decision in May.

BrightCedars · Post by **BrightCedars** » 22 Mar 2006, 17:01

Sounds like they're stealing the idea of the BEAP people if I'm not mistaken, am I?

Stij · Post by **Stij** » 22 Mar 2006, 18:06

When you compete in a mature market (aviation is) you have to differentiate from your competitors (like Ryanair or VLM). Differentiating is not offering flights to more destinations a few times a week as AF/KL does. I'm sorry, but SNBA is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to small to beat them. If SNBA wants to have a shot they have to do it differently.

Sabena played this game also a few times, with succes. If I read a few books well, routes such as Boston or Bologna were pretty profitable (at least less unprofitable) because no other network carrier flew those routes from a big hub and Sabena could offer convenient flights from their Brussels Hub.

Now imagine that SNBA could offer the market daily flights (with a connection of 1 hour in Douala) to 6 (6 146-200) cities in that area? That would be an attractive product for time sensitive high yield business class passengers.

So I my humble opinion, the idea to send in the 146-200's is not so bad as they will be easier to fill then 737-300's and so it would be easier to offer daily connections to these 6 cities.

If you work together with Comair (BA partner/owned), you can even play that game twice a day, once from Brussels (in the early evening) and once from Johannesburg (in the late afternoon). Let the 146-200 fly and be filled

.

In short, SNBA would offer a product that nobody else offers, therefore they could demand more money, therefore you have a shot at making to some money. When you make money you can grow. One problem: this works if there's a market fro this.

Cheers,

Stij

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 22 Mar 2006, 19:04

I think Stij has got the picture.

If SN wants to compete with AF/KL they have to do be different.

AF/KL indeed offers more DIRECT flights than SN, and it would take an awfull lot of extra long haul planes and money to just come on a par with them (possibly resulting in overcapacity on the routes) and still would not give SN a competitive advantage. Therefore the idea of SN would be to offer DAILY frequencies to many of their central african destinations, albeit with a short stop in DLA.

Some pax will want a direct non-stop flight and will thus have to travel on the day AF/KL serve the destination they need to go to, others will be less flexible and want to go on the day of their choice and will certainly have a preference for SN.

It might sound controvertial, but I think the most time sensitive (hi yield) pax will have a preference for the SN model....

burner737 · Post by **burner737** » 22 Mar 2006, 19:53

Correct !!!

This best plan I've heard from SNBA since the start, I wasn't pro for the VEX take over, because of the figures, but this has allot of potential !!!

Regards Tim

DannyVDB · Post by **DannyVDB** » 22 Mar 2006, 20:07

Hi all,

Did they not have before a similar idea/plan for a hub in Uganda? Or was this in the Sabena period?

Danny

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 22 Mar 2006, 20:07

I would like to reply and participate as well in this very interesting topic. But since I hardly have time today (exam tomorrow) I will only say one small thing

It's indeed a great plan with some potential. I really wish SN to be able to do all that. BUT let's not forget that SN didn't get the deal yet. They will have to compete against three other airlines which could also be strong candidates for the aquisition of Camair.

Chris

Stij · Post by **Stij** » 23 Mar 2006, 08:18

Avro wrote:It's indeed a great plan with some potential. I really wish SN to be able to do all that. BUT let's not forget that SN didn't get the deal yet. They will have to compete against three other airlines which could also be strong candidates for the aquisition of Camair.

Chris

I totally agree! I just wanted to point out that this could make sense.

On the other hand there's also a danger in this business plan: Brussels and SNBA could loose their role as a hub between the USA and Africa. I don't know how many passengers are transferring in Brussels between AA-flights and Africa, but if the Douala hub works it wouldn't take long before AA starts a daily JFK Douala flight.

Cheers,

Stij

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » 23 Mar 2006, 09:04

Stij wrote:
On the other hand there's also a danger in this business plan: Brussels and SNBA could loose their role as a hub between the USA and Africa. I don't know how many passengers are transferring in Brussels between AA-flights and Africa, but if the Douala hub works it wouldn't take long before AA starts a daily JFK Douala flight.

bwa, codeshareflight (AA & SN) between Douala and the US?

jelger · Post by **jelger** » 23 Mar 2006, 09:17

blackhawk wrote:
Stij wrote:
On the other hand there's also a danger in this business plan: Brussels and SNBA could loose their role as a hub between the USA and Africa. I don't know how many passengers are transferring in Brussels between AA-flights and Africa, but if the Douala hub works it wouldn't take long before AA starts a daily JFK Douala flight.
bwa, codeshareflight (AA & SN) between Douala and the US?

I don't see American carriers fly more "extensively" directly to the African continent in a while.

the hub with KLM/Kenya Airways in Nairobi is working very well, also with American transito passengers (mostly tourists obviously) but is there an increase in direct US-Nairobi flights?

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 23 Mar 2006, 12:22

Indeed, besides I have to check but I doubt Cameroon is listed as class 1 courty by the FAA, which would make it extremely difficult for any US carrier to operate a non-stop airlink...

BTW, even if it were, don't get carried away: 'A lot of US transfer pax for Africa through BRU' currently means 50 or so a day....

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 23 Mar 2006, 23:22

First of all I totally agree with Stij's opinion about doing things differently. It's the only way they can compete against the giants like AF/KL etc... And by building up a hub in Douala they could serve some destinations daily just by flying the long haul plane to the big city i.e Douala.

But concerning the 330 I have a question: It is said that they will undergo some heavy maintenance where they will get the new cabin and probably the new paint as well. But didn't the A330 have their D-Checks 1.5 years ago in Singapore ? Why didn't they paint them at that time and put the new cabin inside ? I remember I asked the same question when they were undergoing those D-checks !! So the idea of refurbishment is't new.

And concerning the BAe146 I also have a question: Can someone please tell me what needs to be upgraded in order to comply to the new regulations ?

Chris

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 24 Mar 2006, 07:38

One and a half years ago, the planes were operated by Birdy and they did not want to invest in too much upgrading, as SN did not want to pay for it nor wanted to pay more to Birdy to operate the updated planes.... So no repainting and no cabin update. This time however, there will be no discussion as to who will pay what (there is just SN) and I do comfirm the repaint and the cabin refurbishing ARE planned.

As to the 146 upgrade: that really is a very technical question which comes down to the fact the 146 do not have innertia navigation sources (if that rings a bell: good, otherwise: sorry, but I am not going to elaborate on all that stuff here on this forum). Therefore the navigation happens on VOR/VOR base only and this does not always provide the required highest accuracy to keep the plane within the stricter terminal routes around bussy airports. Up to now, aircraft then can request radar vectors, but with the ever denser airspace around those airports, this proves to be a pain in the a** for controlers and authorities have thus drawn arrival routes which take away this task from ATC but wich are not based on VOR's neither. You thus need another costly thing to determine your possition (GPS as sole primary source in NOT allowed, only as supplemental source....).

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 24 Mar 2006, 09:47

tolipanebas wrote: As to the 146 upgrade: that really is a very technical question which comes down to the fact the 146 do not have innertia navigation sources (if that rings a bell: good, otherwise: sorry, but I am not going to elaborate on all that stuff here on this forum). Therefore the navigation happens on VOR/VOR base only and this does not always provide the required highest accuracy to keep the plane within the stricter terminal routes around bussy airports. Up to now, aircraft then can request radar vectors, but with the ever denser airspace around those airports, this proves to be a pain in the a** for controlers and authorities have thus drawn arrival routes which take away this task from ATC but wich are not based on VOR's neither. You thus need another costly thing to determine your possition (GPS as sole primary source in NOT allowed, only as supplemental source....).

Thanks for your answer tolipanebas. You don't need to go in more details I know what you are talking about.

I agree that if they need to install and INS/IRS system on board it will be costly !!

Chris

b-west · Post by **b-west** » 25 Mar 2006, 12:45

I was just checking Cameroon in het CIA factbook. Turns out Belgium is Cameroons third largest trade partner... so there are sure to be interesting cargo opportunities as well for SN

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/cm.html

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 11 May 2006, 20:38

Is there already news about this?

SN_fan · Post by **SN_fan** » 29 May 2006, 20:18

we are almost end of may, has a decision already been made.