SN Brussels' expansion in Africa: it may acquire Camair

Buzz · Post by **Buzz** » 21 Mar 2006, 09:59

sn26567 wrote:
Johan23 wrote:Where does this info come from?

Reliable sources or rumours?
Thanks for doubting about my information

In the forum you can find rumours. In the latest news section of Luchtzk, it is reliable information, confirmed by four newspapers in Morocco, France and Cameroon. Is that enough?

Welcome to the A.net style forum !

Everytime a story is posted without a link to prove it, you get these comments...

No need to get angry, there is a lot of junk on the internet, he was just asking if it was just a rumour or a newsfact with links...

tintinaucongo · Post by **tintinaucongo** » 21 Mar 2006, 12:03

UY B752 does not seem to be stored. I just saw it on a charter DLA-SSG last week, still painted in UY colors. On the other hand, I don't think they have other planes available: their B742 crashed in Paris some time ago, their B732 and HS748 are no longer flying... In fact SSG is only 40 nm from DLA and we hardly see any flights in: They have no more planes for regional routes... (Only a 767 to Paris...)

AFApresident · Post by **AFApresident** » 21 Mar 2006, 15:33

This would certainly be a good move by SN! If they get it for a good price.

Granted the planes are old ... but the routes, the hub, the potential is far more superior!

SN certainly needs to do something, as otherwise they'll get overrun by a ton of other airlines.

Don't make the same Sabena mistake ...where we entered too late the American and Asian market!

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 22 Mar 2006, 09:16

The news has been taken over by several Belgian newspapers and has been confirmed by SN Brussels Airlines.

The plan is to liquidate the current Cameroon Airlines (which has over 120 million euro in depts), transfer all activa to a newly set up company (in which SN would hold 51%) and use it as African regional carrier, linking Douala with Kinshasa, Brazzaville, Libreville, Bangui and Malabo (and possibly other new cities).

ComAir, Kenya Airways and RAM are the 3 other airlines interested in Cameroon Airlines.

SN_fan · Post by **SN_fan** » 22 Mar 2006, 09:52

who would hold the other 49 %?

And then they could serve kigali maybe? So if they hold an airplane from SN it would be an 146 and not an 333?

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 22 Mar 2006, 09:57

The Government of Cameroon I'd assume?

Just looking at what places fall within an 'operational range' of slightly under 1,000NM from DLA

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=%0D% ... MAP-STYLE=

Places of interest -except those currently served by Cameroon Airlines- coult be:
Lagos, Abuja, Kano - Nigeria
Porto Novo - Benin
Lomé - Togo
Accra - Ghana
Most of these have been SN destinations in the past.

KGL is definitely out of reach from DLA for a BAe146: almost 1,500NM.

TCAS_climb · Post by **TCAS_climb** » 22 Mar 2006, 11:22

"- Hey boys, let's start a hub in Africa !
- Great idea, boss ! What type of aircraft do we use, and on what routes ?
- Oh let's try to make it a real African hub, we're just in the middle of the continent anyway.
- Yeah right, it would be stupid to have aircraft that dont reach the coasts and cover the whole area.
- Errr, actually we don't have much choice for the type, we've got a bunch of aircraft we need to get rid of.
- Ok boss, what is it ?
- Our steam-gauge Avros.
- But it doesn't go far enough, boss.
- Yeah I know, but if we try to sell them the price will be ridiculous and we'll lose a lot more money in a shorter time frame and we'll look a lot more stupid than if we lose the same amount of money on a longer time frame.
- And what about capacity ? If our long-range aircraft bring more pax from Europe than there are seats in the short-range aircraft they won't be happy.
- Yeah I know, but we could put several aircraft on the same route with just an hour difference between the two flights.
- Then why not a bigger aircraft right away ?
- Because I told you we don't have much choice, kid !
- Ok boss, but the pax are not happy with short stops on long routes. They'll be even more unhappy if we force them to get off and take another plane for a short flight. It also increases the risk of losing bags.
- Kid, I'm 100% with you on this one. But we don't really have a choice here, we'll do it as I said.
- But what about cargo ? We're making money on cargo that doesn't fit in the Avros.
- Oh well, let's keep the long-range aircraft on those routes then.
- Ok, boss. But if you don't change much of your long-range routes and just set up an African company with the wrong aircraft, why do you want to set up an African hub anyway ?
- Errrrrr..."

Feels like we're back in the days when Sabena chose an all-Airbus fleet for the worst possible reasons while all the available information at that time suggested that chosing Boeing would be better for the company.

I'm really not sure about this hub...

fly · Post by **fly** » 22 Mar 2006, 11:30

yes but maybe this is only the beginning if this runs well they could start the same hub on the other side of the african continent (east), and maybe fly bigger airplanes aswell when they could be added to the 146 fleet in DLA 8)

TCAS_climb · Post by **TCAS_climb** » 22 Mar 2006, 11:46

I'm not sure SNBA is in a position where it can afford a "less-than-perfectly-planned" African operation. Even for 6 months. But that's just how I see it now with the limited info I can get.

"Piss-poor planning leads to piss-poor performance", said the instructor.

Start spending some cash on improving the service and IFE on long-range flights before starting a new airline in Africa. South African Airways is considered the best African airline ("Best African Airline in 2005", right ?), and SNBA is waaaay behind, especially on those 2 issues.

PAA · Post by **PAA** » 22 Mar 2006, 11:53

I would agree with your last quote, however nothing prevents you to do both simultaneously. level up the service, align Virgin Express and develop a strong plan for hub in Africa is not an impossible task to deal with. At the end of the day, there is plenty of expertise in the house - as long as one can cope with the political aspects of these developments. Camair is an opportunity for SNBA, and potentially SNBA can use its most recent management experience to build a sound & profitable operation in Africa. Market for a 'safe' airline there is huge....

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 22 Mar 2006, 11:56

As from next month, all 3 A330s will undergo heavy maintenance (each about 1 month), during which the entire cabin will be changed, both in Y and C class.

fokker_f27 · Post by **fokker_f27** » 22 Mar 2006, 12:01

According to the website this is the fleet:

1 Boeing 747-300 ER F/C/Y
1 Boeing 767-300 ER F/C/Y (Paris CDG)

1 Boeing 767-200 ER F/Y

2 Boeing 757-200 ER F/Y

1 Boeing 757 Cargo
1 Beechcraft 1900 D Y

Seems fair enough.

tintinaucongo · Post by **tintinaucongo** » 22 Mar 2006, 12:38

Il faut voir aussi l'intéret de l'Etat Camerounais...
1/ Douala n'est pas le seul aéroport international camerounais: il y a aussi Yaounde NSI et même Garoua (le B742 de UY faisait des vols Douala Garoua Paris !)
2/ Il devrait être possible de faire KGL et BJM même avec une escale, comme le faisait UY auparavant.
3/ La force de Camair n'est pas sa flotte inexistante mais son réseau et ses droits de trafic !
4/ Il y a pas mal de potentiel de trafic dans la région, mal déservis depuis la fin des monopoles et la chutes des anciennes cies nationales (RK, GN, UY, SR, SN ...) comme par ex: LOS PHC ABV KAN NIM LFW COO (pas Porto Novo !) SSG BSG LBV POG BGF NDJ PNR BZV FIH etc etc etc...
5/ Il faut voir dans quel état moribond se trouve l'aviation dans cette région du monde: ici un passager est déjà trop content quand il y a un vol et quand le vol part plus ou moins à l'heure et surtout le jour prévu !
Les gens sont obligés d'affrèter des avions, car pas de vol régulier fiable.

Il faut saisir les opportunités mais la volonté de développer l'aviation en Afrique n'est pas une préoccupation directe de SN à mon avis...

OO-VEX: tintinaucongo, thanks for your contribution, but please do post in English on this forum

Sabena_690 · Post by **Sabena_690** » 22 Mar 2006, 12:49

@TCAS_climb: I understand that some people are a bit negative about taking over an airline in Africa, but your assumption that the Africa operations of SN are "less than perfectly planned" is unfounded.

Also your question-answer game seven replies above this posting is a little childish in my opinion.

This is a big an important step for the future development of SN, so let's give SN all the support they need.

Nobody knows whether those plans will succeed or not. The only thing I do know, is that those plans get my full support! It is a unique opportunity.

Frederic

fly · Post by **fly** » 22 Mar 2006, 12:55

well said Frederic,

BTW British Airways is kinde doing the same thing with comair of south africa also one of the contenders.

jelger · Post by **jelger** » 22 Mar 2006, 13:11

ComAir, Kenya Airways and RAM are the 3 other airlines interested in Cameroon Airlines.

of which Kenya Airways is 26% "owned" by KLM(-AF)

TCAS_climb · Post by **TCAS_climb** » 22 Mar 2006, 13:24

In chronological order:

I have my doubts about basing the steam-gauges Avros in Cameroun, especially about the range and payload.

"Fly" agrees and adds it could just be a begining before using other types or setting up another base.

I reply that SNBA probably can't afford a "less-than-perfectly-planned" operation (who can anyway ?). I'm not stating the current plan is less than perfecly planned, since I also said there's not much info going around at this time. See the difference now ?

There's a major revamp of SNBA's A333 coming up ? That's great news...

Camair has lots of Boeing ? What for ? They're not going very far with the bankruptcy getting closer and closer. Lessors will get them back, and if there are any 100%-owned aircraft they'll probably be impounded to cover part of the 120 million EUR-hole in Camair's finances. Just forget Camair's aircraft for the "New Camair" (unless politics get in the way and distort everything of course).

Too bad if you don't like the way I ask questions, but I think it's relevant to question the soundness of the plan to set-up a hub with Avros in Cameroun. The same way it was relevant to question Sabena's decision to buy 34 Airbus. This is just a forum, not SNBA's board.

Well, it's your company after all, not mine, isn't it ?

TWA · Post by **TWA** » 22 Mar 2006, 14:03

looks like a very solid plan.

happy to hear that for once they want to start off in a political stable country

lumumba · Post by **lumumba** » 22 Mar 2006, 14:24

Hi everybody.
Douala is a very important hub it was a very important hub.
For example if you want to fly to Bangui you have one flight a week with Air france. Before you had 4 flight's a week from Douala .I also think that for destinations like Bangui there is no more traffic from Europe than for 1 flight a week.
So if you make a hub in Douala you can use smaller planes so you can make more flight's and your crew is not stuck a whole week.
And for Business passengers it's very inportant.
Regards
Pat

Post by **sn26567** » 22 Mar 2006, 14:24

The Belgian press has finally come up with the news. E.g. L'Echo.

Luchtzak was well ahead of the Belgian press. Two days earlier

8)