Oh my god, you saw the tenerrife collision ? This is awfull !
All these different frequency system is quite complicate, they should have an easier system... do they have good radars on board ?
Which planes are you flying today ?
Disaster narrowly avoided at Paris
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CPDLC which is the name of the interface enabling the pilots and ATC to talk via datalink is already widely used for Atlantic crossing and in other Oceanic zones.
I am aware that they do use this, but I still think it is an unwise choice for the terminal environment. Too many planes in close proximity to each other, I would much rather hear what is happening to other airplanes, especially in poor weather conditions.
Datalink is already used at several airports like EBBR since years to deliver the "Clearance"
Are you referring to ACARS??
"What's this button do?? I don't know, push it and find out................."
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foxtrot_lima_yankee
- Posts: 145
- Joined: 04 Nov 2005, 00:00
Hi, more about the Tenerife incident: the weather was very foggy. Controllers could not see any of the aircraft taxiing, nor the KLM nor the Pan-AM. This is also the reason why KLM B747 could not see Pan-Am 747 taxiing on the runway but also the explanation to the fact that the Pan-Am 747 missed its exit. Pan-AM was listed to take-off just after the KLM, on the same runway in the same direction. But as both flight-crews had to hurry to stay within legally admitted consecutive hours of service, the tower-controllers who knew this decided to let them taxi over the whole length of the runway, then let them take a 180 degrees turn in order to let them take-off from the whole length of the same runway but in the opposite direction.
Both KLM and Pan-Am B747 were taxiing on the runway and as ordered the KLM took a 180 degrees left when it reached the end of the runway, getting started for take-off. But Pan-Am was still looking for its exit taxiway to pull itself on the side, which would have cleared the runway for the KLM B747. But the captain of the KLM did not wait until he was assured the Pan-Am had left the runway and started taking-off. The Flight-engineer asked him several times weither he was absolutely sure that the Pan-Am B747 had left the runway. The Captain pretended he was but just when he saw the Pan-Am B747 on the runway in front of him at about a distance of 600 meters, he realised he was wrong and started rotating. But the B747 did not have enough speed to climb over the Pan-Am B747 and it resulted in on of the most dramatic aircraft incidents of history. No one survived the accident.
TO ALL PILOTS and car-drivers:
IT IS BETTER TO WAIST 6O SECONDS OF ONE S LIFE(and to be blamed for doing that)THEN TO WAIST ONE AND OTHER S WHOLE LIFE!!!! For car-drivers that will sound like: There is a difference between riding at 120km/h and 150km/h : you ll get home 5 minutes earlier but that is IF you do get home!! Just a remark as I saw many punks running on the E19 from Brussels, on my way back home.
Both KLM and Pan-Am B747 were taxiing on the runway and as ordered the KLM took a 180 degrees left when it reached the end of the runway, getting started for take-off. But Pan-Am was still looking for its exit taxiway to pull itself on the side, which would have cleared the runway for the KLM B747. But the captain of the KLM did not wait until he was assured the Pan-Am had left the runway and started taking-off. The Flight-engineer asked him several times weither he was absolutely sure that the Pan-Am B747 had left the runway. The Captain pretended he was but just when he saw the Pan-Am B747 on the runway in front of him at about a distance of 600 meters, he realised he was wrong and started rotating. But the B747 did not have enough speed to climb over the Pan-Am B747 and it resulted in on of the most dramatic aircraft incidents of history. No one survived the accident.
TO ALL PILOTS and car-drivers:
IT IS BETTER TO WAIST 6O SECONDS OF ONE S LIFE(and to be blamed for doing that)THEN TO WAIST ONE AND OTHER S WHOLE LIFE!!!! For car-drivers that will sound like: There is a difference between riding at 120km/h and 150km/h : you ll get home 5 minutes earlier but that is IF you do get home!! Just a remark as I saw many punks running on the E19 from Brussels, on my way back home.
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foxtrot_lima_yankee
- Posts: 145
- Joined: 04 Nov 2005, 00:00
About the radar systems quoted in one of the previous replies: Airliners are not allowed to carry radar-systems that are able to locate other aircraft in their vicinity to avoid these to be used for bad purposes by hijackers or terrorists. Military aircraft do carry such systems, which are also very expensive(but not the main reason why they are not set on civil aircrafts). I though think that these systems should also be installed on civil aircraft. For security reasons they can be set them in order to turn on at the same time as the proximity alert turns on. That will give pilots more time for response, and more time to inform controllers ábout the way they will organise this response. This can also help to avoid air traffic controllers to be overloaded on some particular hours inn particularly dense traffic areas.
Wasn't there a BA Trident that hit a DC-9 near Zagreb (sp) due to miss-comunication?
why didn't the BA plane say 'in English Please' to the French ATC?
If English is normally used, then why not only speak French/German/Spanish/Dutch for chat, rather than anything important and have this regulated?
How about sending the instructions by Datalink, but also broadcasting them ove radio?
why didn't the BA plane say 'in English Please' to the French ATC?
If English is normally used, then why not only speak French/German/Spanish/Dutch for chat, rather than anything important and have this regulated?
How about sending the instructions by Datalink, but also broadcasting them ove radio?
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foxtrot_lima_yankee
- Posts: 145
- Joined: 04 Nov 2005, 00:00
Rules??French to French planes?
SINCE WHEN?????
ENGLISH is the only permitted language up there!!!!
And there has been a mid-air collision in 1976 over Zagreb and is remembered as ONE OF THE WORST OF HISTORY!!!!An Inex-Adria DC-9 collided with a British Airways Trident 3B.
More info on the next site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreb_mid-air_collision
I do respect you VC-10, as you are one of the few people who know this terrible accident ever hppened!
Do not blame this member!
SINCE WHEN?????
ENGLISH is the only permitted language up there!!!!
And there has been a mid-air collision in 1976 over Zagreb and is remembered as ONE OF THE WORST OF HISTORY!!!!An Inex-Adria DC-9 collided with a British Airways Trident 3B.
More info on the next site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreb_mid-air_collision
I do respect you VC-10, as you are one of the few people who know this terrible accident ever hppened!
Do not blame this member!
Thanks foxtrot_lima_yankee. (I am Dyspraxic (sp again?) and cannot spell at all, but try my best.)
I found out while searching for BA accidents, to try and help my mum onto a BA plane by telling her of the airline's good saftey record (The Zageb crash was their last fatal accident, the fire at Manchester was British Airtours)
I found out while searching for BA accidents, to try and help my mum onto a BA plane by telling her of the airline's good saftey record (The Zageb crash was their last fatal accident, the fire at Manchester was British Airtours)
First of all I'd like to apologize, but due to the current exam period I'm not able to read a lot of topics lately. I just came across this one and didn't read many replies. So forgive me if what I say was already mentioned in earlier posts. 
AFAIK there are 4 official languages which are English, Russian, French and Spanish. But I'm not sure there...
To come back to the topic. I must say I find it a stupid idea to start talking in french to the french planes and in english to the others. This behavior will give you several BIG disadvantages on a safety point of view, but I agree it'll give you the "prestige" and national pride feeling some countries have about their language.
I myself had the chance to make a jumpseat on a baby bus of a big french airline (
) in late November 2005. This was my first jumpseat in a plane using french communications. I found it weird to hear all the communications in french, but also the fact to hear mix of french and english through your headphones is quite annoying IMHO. I'd like to see the face of some foreign pilots when they need to communicate in this mix of french and english conversations....
One of the main disadvantages is IMHO that non french speaking pilots will not be able to overhear the communications with other pilots. This will reduce their awareness of what's happening around them. And this is a very important issue in aviation. You should always be aware of what's happening around you, especially when you are flying quite fast in a dense and crowded area. This was already the cause of crashes in the past and will be the causes of crashes in the future. But unfortunately it seems that some countries prefer their national pride above some more safety....
A second drawback is that the french speaking pilots will regularly leave their french airspace and fly in an airspace were english is spoken. So in fact they not only need to know the terms in one single language, but need to use specific terms in both languages. Why make the life more complicated and stressful to pilots if we can do it simpler by using one language ?? It seems that french speaking people have already enough difficulties to have a pronunciation in English which is understandable by anyone, so why not giving them the opportunity to practice it more often ??
I have nothing against french speaking people I'm native french speaking myself
And this problem is not only for the french pilots, but the same issues are happening with the Russians and Spanish people.
IMHO the different authorities should forget about their prides and roots and adopt the English language as everywhere else in the world. Give the pilots and controllers a very tough English course (technical terms and pronunciation) and that will certainly solve some problems.
Thanks for reading that far don't shoot me it's just my opinion and I don't want to offend anybody
Cheers
Chris
jan_olieslagers wrote:
2) When I took the PPL ground class, I was tought that ICAO recognizes three languages for ATC: English, Russian, French.
AFAIK there are 4 official languages which are English, Russian, French and Spanish. But I'm not sure there...
To come back to the topic. I must say I find it a stupid idea to start talking in french to the french planes and in english to the others. This behavior will give you several BIG disadvantages on a safety point of view, but I agree it'll give you the "prestige" and national pride feeling some countries have about their language.
I myself had the chance to make a jumpseat on a baby bus of a big french airline (
) in late November 2005. This was my first jumpseat in a plane using french communications. I found it weird to hear all the communications in french, but also the fact to hear mix of french and english through your headphones is quite annoying IMHO. I'd like to see the face of some foreign pilots when they need to communicate in this mix of french and english conversations.... One of the main disadvantages is IMHO that non french speaking pilots will not be able to overhear the communications with other pilots. This will reduce their awareness of what's happening around them. And this is a very important issue in aviation. You should always be aware of what's happening around you, especially when you are flying quite fast in a dense and crowded area. This was already the cause of crashes in the past and will be the causes of crashes in the future. But unfortunately it seems that some countries prefer their national pride above some more safety....
A second drawback is that the french speaking pilots will regularly leave their french airspace and fly in an airspace were english is spoken. So in fact they not only need to know the terms in one single language, but need to use specific terms in both languages. Why make the life more complicated and stressful to pilots if we can do it simpler by using one language ?? It seems that french speaking people have already enough difficulties to have a pronunciation in English which is understandable by anyone, so why not giving them the opportunity to practice it more often ??
I have nothing against french speaking people I'm native french speaking myself
And this problem is not only for the french pilots, but the same issues are happening with the Russians and Spanish people.
IMHO the different authorities should forget about their prides and roots and adopt the English language as everywhere else in the world. Give the pilots and controllers a very tough English course (technical terms and pronunciation) and that will certainly solve some problems.
Thanks for reading that far
don't shoot me it's just my opinion and I don't want to offend anybody Cheers
Chris
foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote: But the B747 did not have enough speed to climb over the Pan-Am B747 and it resulted in on of the most dramatic aircraft incidents of history. No one survived the accident.
Actually this is incorrect. All passengers and crew on board the KLM 747 died. The crew had managed to unstick the aircraft, which was meters above the ground when it hit the Pan Am 747. As a consequence of that, the KLM plane caught fire and ended its course on the runway far beyond the Pan Am plane. The Pan Am 747 was hit on the higher part of its fuselage and and was set on fire by the explosion of the KLM wing tanks.
Amazingly the Pan Am 747 was only partially destroyed, parts of it (front and rear) remained intact for a while. This enabled some of the passengers and crew (at least 50) to escape, including the pilots.