First long haul low cost airline to start in Croatia

Galemos4 · Post by **Galemos4** » 12 Jan 2006, 01:07

world wrote:Do you know what you are talking about user name"jat boy?"
Why are you comparing Greece with Croatia?
What has that got to do with my previous comments?
Obviously you DONT READ what iam writing!
I feel that you are been stubborn!
I said there is a demand for additional flights from OZ to EUROPE and vice versa!
Jat CANNOT and will NOT fly to OZ because its got the wrong CHOICE
aircraft the B.767/200!
You cannot dispute that!
JAT,OA.AZ are aviation companies that are stuggling businesses,
just like Ansett was before they disappeared from the Australian scene.
You CANNOT dispute that!
Jat, OA ,AZ are ALL WELCOME to RESUME services into Australia,
there is a market here for them!
I feel that other users on this website are getting "BORED", when reading about this topic!
Why dont we ALL "give it a break" and let this this so called "new Croatian long haul airline",
start up and see what happens!
Iam TRYING to be nice to you, user name "jat boy",
but SOMETIMES you are talking about ABSOLUTE RUBBISH!
Kindest regards to Everyone!

Offcourse Jat wont fly to Australia – it is too expensive but a low cost company from Croatia will not either. Australians would rather choose British, Virgin or Ausrian to Europe

world · Post by **world** » 12 Jan 2006, 07:47

Obviously you have nothing futher more to say about this topic!
You DONT KNOW much about the travel market in OZ and ASIA either!
Jat is welcome to fly to OZ anytime,there is a market here for them!
Why should Australians fly with JAT and NOT with a Croatian private long haul airline?
Your comments are inconsiderate/childish!
Your country will be in the E.U in the near future?
I guarantee you within the next 5 years there will be up to,
"3 NEW LOW COST SERBIAN AIRLINES", operating from BEG
on ALL the ROUTES JAT has now!
It is about to happen to Croatia Airlines this year, so DONT think
JAT wont face LOCAL COMPETITION in the near future!
Your carrier will have to WORK HARDER to promote its product,
or they simply WONT be around!
Kindest regards!

Galemos4 · Post by **Galemos4** » 12 Jan 2006, 09:15

world wrote:Obviously you have nothing futher more to say about this topic!
You DONT KNOW much about the travel market in OZ and ASIA either!
Jat is welcome to fly to OZ anytime,there is a market here for them!
Why should Australians fly with JAT and NOT with a Croatian private long haul airline?
Your comments are inconsiderate/childish!
Your country will be in the E.U in the near future?
I guarantee you within the next 5 years there will be up to,
"3 NEW LOW COST SERBIAN AIRLINES", operating from BEG
on ALL the ROUTES JAT has now!
It is about to happen to Croatia Airlines this year, so DONT think
JAT wont face LOCAL COMPETITION in the near future!
Your carrier will have to WORK HARDER to promote its product,
or they simply WONT be around!
Kindest regards!

Jat won’t return to Australia because it is too expensive. And offcourse Jat will have competition in the Balkan market but if the route was profitable for low cost airlines other airlines would have done it. Ryan Air for one - it's not as if this low cost 'future' Croatian airline thought of it first.

world · Post by **world** » 12 Jan 2006, 11:25

Of course JAT WONT return to OZ!
Not with a B.767/200 aircraft!
Iam talking about future "LOW COST airlines from SERBIA",
that will COMPETE with JAT on their CURRENT routes from BEG!
This will happen in the next few years when YOUR government,
will have "NO ALTERNATIVE" but to allow "UNRESTRICTED COMPETITION",
to NEW LOCAL SERBIAN airlines and OTHER EUROPEAN airlines on all JATS routes!
So if your country does become an E.U member or CANDIDATE?
YOUR government WONT BE ABLE to rescue JAT by injecting more funds
into them WHILE THEY ARE MAKING LOSSES!
Obviously you DONT see the fact that there will be "NEW SERBIAN AIRLINES",
operating from BEG in the next few years and JATS hold on its current CREAM
routes will disappear!
I really DONT THINK your airline jat WILL SURVIVE in an
"OPEN SKIES EUROPEAN AVIATION ENVIRONMENT!"
UNLESS it WORKS VERY HARD to PROMOTE THEIR PRODUCT!

Airliner_World · Post by **Airliner_World** » 12 Jan 2006, 11:51

world wrote:Obviously you have nothing futher more to say about this topic!
You DONT KNOW much about the travel market in OZ and ASIA either!
Jat is welcome to fly to OZ anytime,there is a market here for them!
Why should Australians fly with JAT and NOT with a Croatian private long haul airline?
Your comments are inconsiderate/childish!
Your country will be in the E.U in the near future?
I guarantee you within the next 5 years there will be up to,
"3 NEW LOW COST SERBIAN AIRLINES", operating from BEG
on ALL the ROUTES JAT has now!
It is about to happen to Croatia Airlines this year, so DONT think
JAT wont face LOCAL COMPETITION in the near future!
Your carrier will have to WORK HARDER to promote its product,
or they simply WONT be around!
Kindest regards!

I agree!!!
I can't see JAT being around in 5 years time unless the government keeps on pumping cash into it, but once Serbia joins the EU there will not be any more cash. The only reason it flies is because of these subsidies. An airline that operates 50 routes and yet only had 1 million pax in 2005 says a lot for its load factor and profits. The airline died when Yugoslavia died and to have some notion that it will again become something great as the Yugoslavia days is nothing but a dream with no foundation.

In the Yugoslav days their base market was 22 million with a lot of charter flights to holiday destinations in Slovenia, Croatia, and Montenegro. These days, JAT doesn't fly these routes anymore and these countries where their core markets. Now they have a core market of about 8 million and NO holiday destinations. Can you imagine someone travelling to Belgrade to soak up some sun?? I don't think so. The only way the airline can survive is by becoming a regional airline within the balkans if it ever manages to sort itself out. That's reality!!!

Their so-called plans to operate to North America are flawed with inefficiencies if the B762 aircraft are real. Lufthansa and Austrian will destroy them without even putting much effort into it. Farewise, there is no way they could compete with anyone using a B762 aircraft. You don't need to be a genius to realise this. I can understand that your sentimental about your national carrier but I think you need to be realistic and take out the dreamer component.

aocmember · Post by **aocmember** » 12 Jan 2006, 13:22

Gentlemen,

You are all correct in saying that there is a place for low cost companies, just look at others like Ryanair and the fact that, in order to compete
with those low cost airlines, the state owned companies have to
restructure or face possible bancrupty.

One the other hand i have my doubts about the concept of a
longhaul low cost airline.
I don't think that it's very interesting flying over 3 hours with minimal
or no service at all...even more if the idea is to operate flights of
over 10 hours!

Nevertheless, i wish them much succes in their project, it can only result better service and prices from the rest of the airlines on the same routes.

Brgds

n5528p · Post by **n5528p** » 12 Jan 2006, 16:19

Of course, sooner or later JAT will face competition from another Serbian airline and time will tell... I think it's quite difficult to make a legitimate assessment, since JAT is just starting to pick up the new routes, aircraft, style - let them work for approx. two years and then we will be able to assess their future more precisely.

Regarding the government aid: JAT does not have to look very far, to learn how to provide huge amounts of government aid to a state - airline despite being in the EU. Italy is just in front of their balcony, and Greece around the corner.

Regards, Bernhard

JAT_boy_BEG · Post by **JAT_boy_BEG** » 12 Jan 2006, 23:52

Airliner_world, your forgot to mention about the flights this summer from Tivat to LHR and LED. now, there are flights from Nis to LHR!!! JAT have so many plans but so little aircraft.

JAT has survived world war 2, the civil war, the brake up of SFRJ, the NATO bombings in 1999, the strikes in 2005 etc and still it has managed to survive. what other airline would be able to survive that? i know UA and Delta and Pan Am for a fact are bankrupt, but JAT isn't.

The new low cost can survive the Euro Mediterranean, but not long haul for the moment. As for the Serbia having low cost airlines in Serbia, the SCG government is letting the open skies agreement take affect as of January 1st 2007. JAT will by then have established it self a bit more, with the new N/American destinations which already is in talk of expansion!!! ORD and YUL or CLE or LAX somwhere there!!! Is it not true that in JAT's peak time that they done a daily flight to JFK?

It is getting off topic now!

the low cost should remain as an Euro-mediteranian airline. FR hasn't gone longhaul, Easyjet hasn't gone long haul, then how will the new "low cost" airline do it?

Galemos4 · Post by **Galemos4** » 13 Jan 2006, 05:23

world wrote:Of course JAT WONT return to OZ!
Not with a B.767/200 aircraft!
Iam talking about future "LOW COST airlines from SERBIA",
that will COMPETE with JAT on their CURRENT routes from BEG!
This will happen in the next few years when YOUR government,
will have "NO ALTERNATIVE" but to allow "UNRESTRICTED COMPETITION",
to NEW LOCAL SERBIAN airlines and OTHER EUROPEAN airlines on all JATS routes!
So if your country does become an E.U member or CANDIDATE?
YOUR government WONT BE ABLE to rescue JAT by injecting more funds
into them WHILE THEY ARE MAKING LOSSES!
Obviously you DONT see the fact that there will be "NEW SERBIAN AIRLINES",
operating from BEG in the next few years and JATS hold on its current CREAM
routes will disappear!
I really DONT THINK your airline jat WILL SURVIVE in an
"OPEN SKIES EUROPEAN AVIATION ENVIRONMENT!"
UNLESS it WORKS VERY HARD to PROMOTE THEIR PRODUCT!

Yes, the open skies agreement will start on January first 2007 and there was never a restriction for new Serbian airlines to start up. Air MAXI a low cost airline was supposed to start services last summer but it didn’t work out. Jat survived WW2, Inflation, sanctions, break up of Yugoslavia, restriction to all destinations and Nato bombing but it still survived so I think that the open sky programme wont be a big problem.

Galemos4 · Post by **Galemos4** » 13 Jan 2006, 05:24

Galemos4 wrote:
world wrote:Of course JAT WONT return to OZ!
Not with a B.767/200 aircraft!
Iam talking about future "LOW COST airlines from SERBIA",
that will COMPETE with JAT on their CURRENT routes from BEG!
This will happen in the next few years when YOUR government,
will have "NO ALTERNATIVE" but to allow "UNRESTRICTED COMPETITION",
to NEW LOCAL SERBIAN airlines and OTHER EUROPEAN airlines on all JATS routes!
So if your country does become an E.U member or CANDIDATE?
YOUR government WONT BE ABLE to rescue JAT by injecting more funds
into them WHILE THEY ARE MAKING LOSSES!
Obviously you DONT see the fact that there will be "NEW SERBIAN AIRLINES",
operating from BEG in the next few years and JATS hold on its current CREAM
routes will disappear!
I really DONT THINK your airline jat WILL SURVIVE in an
"OPEN SKIES EUROPEAN AVIATION ENVIRONMENT!"
UNLESS it WORKS VERY HARD to PROMOTE THEIR PRODUCT!
Yes, the open skies agreement will start on January first 2007 and there was never a restriction for new Serbian airlines to start up. Air MAXI a low cost airline was supposed to start services last summer but it didn’t work out. Jat survived WW2, Inflation, sanctions, break up of Yugoslavia, restriction to all destinations and Nato bombing but it still survived so I think that the open sky programme wont be a big problem.

lol just noticed your post was similar to mine

horizon · Post by **horizon** » 14 Jan 2006, 01:13

Hello to everyone!
I think that this croatian lowcost airliner can be a fresh breeze on the balkan peninsula. Jat and croatia could fly passengers from europe and this lowcostcompany could take them to Oz. Money doesn´t smell so no matter the nationality flying-your wallet it´s what counts nowadays.
Jat and croatia will survive i hope they will be privatised and lower their fares, i rather travel with them then with austrian and other"friendly"airlines.

A350_scout · Post by **A350_scout** » 17 Jan 2006, 22:07

Flight International story regarding the new low cost airline in Croatia.

http://www.flightinternational.com/Arti ... unity.html

JAT_boy_BEG · Post by **JAT_boy_BEG** » 18 Jan 2006, 23:56

I knew this airline will start as a domestic european airline. i still think that it will take more that 1 - 2 years before it goes long-haul. This airline will be under compentition with the increasing of Low-cost carriers to Croatia.

JAT is said to resume their SIN flights in 2007 if the JFK and YYZ flights go succesful.

I would have wanted to see OU get some long-haul as well.

world · Post by **world** » 19 Jan 2006, 00:59

What JAT does and where they go is their OWN business!
Croatia Airlines will NEVER be a LONG HAUL AIRLINE!
Only a LH feeder airline!
Croatia airlines has had 14 years to get involved in long haul operations,
but they dont have the VISION to do it!
People in Croatia are SICK and TIRED of paying for HIGH AIRFARES
to travel DOMESTICALLY and around EUROPE and FUTHER.
Croatia airlines has NOT done ENOUGH to REDUCE airfares and STIMULATE the travel market.
I think yourself user name "jat boy", will have to get use to the fact that
Croatia will have its OWN COMPETITIVE "LOW COST EUROPEAN and LONG
HAUL AIRLINE", that will OFFER its passengers great SERVICE!

Airliner_World · Post by **Airliner_World** » 19 Jan 2006, 23:15

In view of the more detailed information, its obvious that the airline will establish feeder services for its long haul North American and Australasian routes from surronding countries such as Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Austria, Italy, Germany, Hungary, etc. As for the national carriers of these countries, there will be no place to hide as they have through long haul services, while those that don't operate long haul, with definately die a slow death as this new airline takes away market share.

It will be interesting to see how this type business plan will spell the death of the national carriers in surrounding countries.

JAT_boy_BEG · Post by **JAT_boy_BEG** » 20 Jan 2006, 00:01

world, i am just brining one view to the situation, while you have another view, thats fine. I mean, that is what we are here for, right? to voice our views and opinions. While i believe that the new low cost will need some time in Europe to slowly grow before going longhaul, i still don't know what other people think here.

Yes, in Croatia, airfares are expensive, and so they are in the neighbouring countries too, so the idea on having a large domestic European airline is way better than having a smaller long-haul airline. At least than, Croatians (and other natonals abroad) can enjoy cheaper airfares between _____ and Croatia. I mean, they can have more destinations, more aircraft, more passengers and a better re-insurance that if the airline failed to succesfully start long-haul operations, than atleast they have their extensive European network still with them instead of next to no destinations and un-needed longhaul aircraft.

As for OU, they have made a big mistake on being a feeder airline to LH. I was waiting for them to get some A330's and go to JFK and YYZ, personally, but it is a shame to see this happen to OU.

n5528p · Post by **n5528p** » 21 Jan 2006, 11:03

Airliner_World wrote:It will be interesting to see how this type business plan will spell the death of the national carriers in surrounding countries.

Do we (=the interested public) have seen a business plan yet? I did not, but perhaps I missed it.

But perhaps we can go through that roughly - what is teh advantage of the LCCs:

1. Less service on board, food & fun costs extra...
2. Quicker turn around and higher utilization ratio over the day...
3. More homogenous networks using only one type (or a small group of very similar types) of aircraft...
4. Marketforce to get smaller and dependant airports lowering their fares...

OK - let's face it:
1 is possible, but if you fly something aroung 20 hrs to SYD people might want a certain level of service - so this is a way to save, but not in the same magnitude as on short and medium hauls.

2 is only possible to a very little extent, due to limitations in feeding and night limitations at various airports.

3 is obviously impossible since a B737 will not be very attractive or efficient to Australasia.

4. Long haul to Bankstown?

Am I missing something? Oh yeh, if you feed, you need people to manage your "hub" -if you have only one long haul flight a day or maybe two, this gets very expensive...

I am very open minded - but I do not see it happening. Perhaps someone could enlighten me here?

Regards, Bernhard

world · Post by **world** » 22 Jan 2006, 11:32

I CANNOT enlighten you user name "n5528p!"
I think that comment was in reference to airlines from South East europe,
that always have high airfares and dont really STIMULATE the travel market around that region!
Anyway,I cant see what all the fuss is about?
The topic is just about a new "European airline", with a Croatian blend,
servicing OZ in the near future!
They are anticipating to have a European and local regional network!
Service is equivalent to other major airlines operating to Europe!
They DONT operate B.737s to Oz!
You can fly long haul to Bankstown, iam happy to organise that for you
user name "n5528p!"
No problem, i can get a TAXY for you from SYD airport to BK airport anytime!
Obviously you have NEVER been to Eastern Europe and you are unaware
that airfares from OZ to this region and surrounding countries are up to
$2400AUD during the months of Dec/Jan, Apr, Jun,Jul,Aug every year!
So WHY should a traveller pay so much money for such HIGH AIRFARES?
And please DONT forget that the AUD IS NOT such a great exchange rate
in E.U countries!
Obviously there is a MARKET for any airline that wants to FLY from Europe
to OZ and vice versa!
I dont know how often you have travelled to a European city from OZ in the past...
BUT up to 6 months throughout the year its difficult to find seats
unless a person has booked a flight up to 6 weeks in advance!
Look at this year 2006, already people are booking flights to ALL European
DESTINATIONS due to the "world Cup" in Germany and the European Summer!
And AIRLINES are NOT willing to add EXTRA flights!
Iam sure the Australian public WELCOMES ANY NEW CARRIER to OZ!
As OZ is a market that just CONTINUES to GROW each year!
kindest regards!

JAT_boy_BEG · Post by **JAT_boy_BEG** » 23 Jan 2006, 02:25

ah, no, not all Australians welcome more airlines, depending on the country its from. Not talking from government point of view, but Australian public. Remember the violence in Sydney?

And our talk back radio hosts don't help either. Alot, i mean, alot of Australians prefer to holiday in Australia, as it has everything the world offers, almost. Yes, you do get Australians that head to Europe, but mainly to work, as i think it is the UK where many go for the better wages.

yeah, i can see the low cost working out in domestic croatia, balkans, europe and n/america, but for australia, no. Australia is too far for them, maybe Middle East, but future would be too much. Maybe a winter charter to south-east asia for those escaping the European winter would work probably, but not all year round though.