First long haul low cost airline to start in Croatia

JAT_boy_BEG · Post by **JAT_boy_BEG** » 29 Dec 2005, 23:23

regi wrote:You think too much in holiday passengers. But think about the vast balkan diaspora living in Australia after the yugoslavian civil wars.
Why did Alitalia fly to Australia? Not for italian tourists.

But AZ is not flying to Australia anymore.

And for the other Balkan destinations, EK connect with JU 3 times a week in the winter, and 5 times in the summer. JU then connects to Skopje, Sarajevo, and soon again Banja Luka. And TAROM also flies to Dubai.

Also i know that OS connect to Tirana, Beograd, Sarajevo, and other Croatian cities. Ljubljana is done through LH and JP via FRA or MUC. Another connections is TG to BKK, SU to _ _ _ via SVO. Also BA and QF fly 2 daily flights from MEL and SYD, VS does another daily from SYD, and from LHR OU, BA and JU connect to other cities. Also JP fly from LGW. then their is CX to HKG then LX to ZRH and again to other cities. TK to IST and JA / TK to SJJ, but JA also fly to OMO and BNX, so more connections there, and LH / SQ to FRA or MUC and OU to Croatian destinations.

I can see them in Europe, and N/America, but not to Asia and Australia.

Airliner_World · Post by **Airliner_World** » 01 Jan 2006, 22:02

Personally I don't see how JAT will operate these long haul services as I've heard that they have been making these types of announcements for the past three years or so without anything much happening apart from a fire sale of old derelict assets, and then suddenly they have money to buy new airbus's, lease-in fuel guzzling B762 aircraft. A little too hard to beleive.

On the other hand, I don't see how JAT would or could even be considered a competitor to a potential low cost airline operating long haul low cost services, especially to Australia. Actually I can't see them being considered a competitor to anyone. Remember, Qantas's Jetstar International is about to launch one-stop low cost long haul services from Australia to Europe in 2006/7, now are you saying that Jetstar can do it, but no other European low cost airline can't???

Secondly, if lets say a new low cost airline starts services to Australia providing fares on average 50% below existing fares to/from Australia, now do you think that people will avoid them simply because they are a European airline??? In all of these comments within this topic I've read that your comparing the new airline to legacy in-efficient airlines and I haven't seen one comment that would tell me they couldn't succeed.

A couple of months ago, the Emirates chairman commented on the feasibility of operating an A380 as a low cost service on the Stansted to Adelaide route with fares of about 50% below current levels, are you saying that he's wrong as well??

Trust me, this is the future of low cost, and I'm expecting in the years ahead that more and more new low cost long haul airlines will become established and operate A380 aircraft on long haul low cost routes, and this new Croatian airline may one-day just be one of them. Time will tell.

JAT_boy_BEG · Post by **JAT_boy_BEG** » 05 Jan 2006, 03:40

Jet star (JQ) has grown rapidly from a domestic airline to an international airline. They fly heaps and heaps of daily flights from many Australian cities, and now from MEL to christchurch. JQ has bulit up its reputation.

The new Croatian low-cost airline will mainly be known to those like us aviation "enthusiasts". If the new croatian low cost began with just domestic European routes, give 1 -2 years, open destinations in North America, then another couple of years out to Asia and Africa, and hey, it will work out. It will be way to soon for them to start long-haul straight away. Im not saying no it can't happen, but in time yes. It makes sense.

I am sure that AO (Australian Airlines) will be the one flying to Europe, and not JQ. i know JQ is focusing on flying to the US and Canada form MEL, SYD, BNE and Cairns. Las Vegas is one destination being planned from all 4 cities i just mentioned.

and for the JAT flights, apparently they have got the landing rights to fly to the U.S, but don't know about Canada. JAT is talking to a couple American companies about leasing 2 B762's. JAT has confirmed that there will be 3 flights a week to JFK starting May 15 this year, and YYZ will commence June 1st this year with 2 flights a week. Both flights are non-stop. ORD is likely to open sometime after the YYZ flights.

Emirates is offering people in Australia and New Zealand many many great connectins to heaps and heaps of destinations world-wide via DXB at great pricing. This is why EK is succeding. and since Dubai is a wonderful duty free city, again tourists to Dubai. And how many airlines connect to EKs Australian and New Zealand flights from DXB? and the EK flights to ADL will happen from DXB and not with A380. MEL and SYD are for sure getting the A380.

n5528p · Post by **n5528p** » 05 Jan 2006, 15:28

Airliner_World wrote:... new low cost airline starts services to Australia providing fares on average 50% below existing fares to/from Australia, now do you think that people will avoid them simply because they are a European airline???

Currently a return ticket from Europe to Australia will cost you something around 1.000€, perhaps even a little bit more. A price reduction of 50% is not very realistic...

Regards, Bernhard

JAT_boy_BEG · Post by **JAT_boy_BEG** » 06 Jan 2006, 01:18

now, the cheapest ticket, off peak, to ZAG/BEG/LJU from MEL or SYD will cost about AU$ 1.500 (€900 - 1.000) ex taxes with TG/QF and SU. Add around AU$300 - AU$400 (€ 180 - 250) for tax. thats just low season. high season is around $2.500 (€ 1.550) ex tax with OS.

now how can the new low cost carrier make any profits to make it last long? it can't because you need to pay airport fees, fuel (whcih is not cheap, unless the flights is via DXB or DOH or somewhere in the M/E), staff etc. 50% is enough from MEL/SYD to places like Phuket, MNL, HKG return, so how can it work from Australia to Croatia? That's why i said domestic Europe and maybe N/A in a couple years later, so the airline can build up it's regular customers, who may fly the long haul flights.

Airliner_World · Post by **Airliner_World** » 08 Jan 2006, 21:22

JAT_boy_BEG wrote:now, the cheapest ticket, off peak, to ZAG/BEG/LJU from MEL or SYD will cost about AU$ 1.500 (€900 - 1.000) ex taxes with TG/QF and SU. Add around AU$300 - AU$400 (€ 180 - 250) for tax. thats just low season. high season is around $2.500 (€ 1.550) ex tax with OS.

Where do you live?? Try $AUD2,000 for low season w/taxes and starting from $AUD2200 plus taxes for peak season.

JAT_boy_BEG wrote:now how can the new low cost carrier make any profits to make it last long? it can't because you need to pay airport fees, fuel (whcih is not cheap, unless the flights is via DXB or DOH or somewhere in the M/E), staff etc. 50% is enough from MEL/SYD to places like Phuket, MNL, HKG return, so how can it work from Australia to Croatia? That's why i said domestic Europe and maybe N/A in a couple years later, so the airline can build up it's regular customers, who may fly the long haul flights.

Firstly I'm not sure you understand that all these fees are already in the fare. Legacy airlines require about 65% load factor before they start making money, some even higher because of their high cost structure, while a low cost entrant would most likely be working on an assumption of a 50% load factor and anything above that could be sold at bargain prices and maybe even cheaper that a 50% discount. Afterall, they begin to make money once the load factor reaches 50%. Who knows, maybe their cost structure is so low that they start making money below the 50% load factor.

All this is dependent on which aircraft they use and what configuration they plan to operate. Does anyone here know which aircraft they plan to use on these routes???? Its simple economics calculations rather than a hunch as some people here seem to think, but without knowing which aircraft they intend to operate, your comments are not valid. Prove me wrong!!!

JAT_boy_BEG · Post by **JAT_boy_BEG** » 09 Jan 2006, 01:04

Airliner_World wrote:
Where do you live?? Try $AUD2,000 for low season w/taxes and starting from $AUD2200 plus taxes for peak season.

in MEL. yeah, on low season the pricing starts at AUD$1500 ex. taxes with TG and SU. EK and JU at AUD$1580 ex taxes.

high season is EK and JU $2100 with taxes (approx.), and OS AUD$2500 ex taxes.

for more information visit:
http://www.flightcentre.com.au

please note: the EK and JU pricing from another agency who sell JU tickets.

Airliner_World · Post by **Airliner_World** » 09 Jan 2006, 23:52

In reality though, how many tickets at these prices are available per flight? I'd say a handful, maybe no more than 30 seats per flight. On a low cost service, I would expect about 45-50% of the seats to be 50% cheaper, and the rest even cheaper. Afterall, a low cost service begins to make money at about 42-50% load factor.

Galemos4 · Post by **Galemos4** » 10 Jan 2006, 00:12

This will never happen

Airliner_World · Post by **Airliner_World** » 10 Jan 2006, 00:22

Galemos4 wrote:This will never happen

Will you share us your crystal ball?

n5528p · Post by **n5528p** » 10 Jan 2006, 09:58

I agree with Airliner_World, that without more details (aircraft for example, stopover...) it is difficult to make serious assumptions - still it is possible to a certain extend.

If we are talking about a ticket price of 500€ /US$, I hope we do not understand that 20 tickets have this price. Please NO marketing - newspeak in here...

And I do not believe that there will be a market big enough from Croatia to fill such a service regularly, meaning twice a week all year round with the maintenance in the low season.

Due to low seat costs required you will need to have a rather large aircraft, which can hardly be filled with any feeder in the background.

Regards, Bernhard

P.S.: Of course, this cannot be proven - but it's in the nature of assumptions that time will prove them wrong or right. The funny thing is - it cannot be falsified either...

Galemos4 · Post by **Galemos4** » 10 Jan 2006, 11:29

Airliner_World wrote:
Galemos4 wrote:This will never happen
Will you share us your crystal ball?

You don’t need a crystal ball… you will see in a few months well actually you wont

There is NO market in Australia for such an airline even from England let alone Croatia

world · Post by **world** » 10 Jan 2006, 12:26

I have read some of your comments!
I personally believe that there is a market for travel between OZ and
EUROPE and vice versa!
As i said previously,even with all the airlines flying to Australia each week,
its very hard to find seats for travel between OZ and Europe during the months of june,july,august,december and january.
Apart from that, there is a big demand for seats on the Europe to Asia
routes!
This so called "new long haul airline in Croatia", is NEEDED to satisfy
Croatia's own travel needs, so passengers dont have to transfer to other
European Capitals prior to arriving in zagreb!
Iam sure this "new airline", will also have some kind of small European
network in place, to transfer passengers to other European destinations!
Airfares are currently really high for travel between OZ and Europe,
if this "new airline",can lower their fares and have a limited European short haul structure,
iam sure people will fly with them.
Jat is welcome to fly to OZ, BUT i know they wont because they have the wrong aircraft for long haul operations.
The B.767/200 series is definetly the WRONG choice of aircraft for flights
to North America.
It just shows that JAT management dont know what they are doing!
Jat will never be a force in Eastern European aviation as it was in the past!
I know airlines like OA,AZ,KLM have all pulled out of the OZ market
but they are INDIVIDUAL circumstances!
OA and AZ are still struggling!
I know when Aeroflot flew to OZ, they were always full and that was with
an A310.
I have heard that Transaero is getting ready to fly to OZ with the B.747/200.
Any "new airline", can succeed flying to OZ but they need the correct marketing and be able to offer their passengers a good service,
not only on the ground but inflight as well!

JAT_boy_BEG · Post by **JAT_boy_BEG** » 11 Jan 2006, 00:51

Greece has a bigger reputation in Australia than Croatia. Greece has many large international airports that are served by many airlines during the summer months. Zakinthos, SKG, Corfu, ATH, Santorini, Heraklion, Keffalinija etc. Croatia only has small airports, and a couple only just regional. DBV, SPU, Zadar, Brac, Rijeka, Pula is all i can think of from Croatia.

The point is that if OA can't than the new low can't. JU had once done it as Jugoslavija was once really well known for being a peacefull nation, with wonderfull beach resorts connected a few times daily with JAT and their large network of destinations world-wide etc. yous get the point.

Oh, by the way, again im saying, tickets between Australia and Europe are not too high. $1500 ex taxes in low, and $2100 with tax in high season is not too expensive. yes its alot, but so are the Australian wages.

please note: all fares mentioned are in Australian Dollars.

world · Post by **world** » 11 Jan 2006, 01:29

Do you know what you are talking about user name"jat boy?"
Why are you comparing Greece with Croatia?
What has that got to do with my previous comments?
Obviously you DONT READ what iam writing!
I feel that you are been stubborn!
I said there is a demand for additional flights from OZ to EUROPE and vice versa!
Jat CANNOT and will NOT fly to OZ because its got the wrong CHOICE
aircraft the B.767/200!
You cannot dispute that!
JAT,OA.AZ are aviation companies that are stuggling businesses,
just like Ansett was before they disappeared from the Australian scene.
You CANNOT dispute that!
Jat, OA ,AZ are ALL WELCOME to RESUME services into Australia,
there is a market here for them!
I feel that other users on this website are getting "BORED", when reading about this topic!
Why dont we ALL "give it a break" and let this this so called "new Croatian long haul airline",
start up and see what happens!
Iam TRYING to be nice to you, user name "jat boy",
but SOMETIMES you are talking about ABSOLUTE RUBBISH!
Kindest regards to Everyone!

A350_scout · Post by **A350_scout** » 11 Jan 2006, 01:29

I see the topic is becoming a sentimental topic amongst the Croatians and Serbs. The topic is about a new low cost airline, not politics of who can provide a better service between the two countries. KEEP POLITICS OUT OF THIS TOPIC.

A350_scout · Post by **A350_scout** » 11 Jan 2006, 01:34

I've been informed that the new airline will be releasing details of its plans in the next few days. It looks as though the airline is going to happen.

world · Post by **world** » 11 Jan 2006, 01:50

My comments are NOT being directed towards politics!
Iam replying to his comments in relation to his example between
Croatia and Greece, which has nothing to do with this topic!
If you read my COMMENTS again user name" A350-SCOUT",
you will notice, i have written that airlines like JAT,OA,AZ are all welcome
to fly to OZ!
It is public knowledge that airlines like OA and AZ have financial problems
and are required to RESTRUCTURE their business!
I feel its the wrong comments by user name "jat boy", when he says
that "wages in Australia are high".
So whats he saying that its OKAY for australian travellers to pay 2500AUD
for a ticket to Europe, with the struggling Australian dollar!

Airliner_World · Post by **Airliner_World** » 11 Jan 2006, 02:05

Galemos4 wrote: There is NO market in Australia for such an airline even from England let alone Croatia

This statement clearly shows your immaturity and lack of knowledge of the aviation transport business!!

By the sounds of it, you serbs think that ONLY Jat has a market to fly pax to/from Australia. Your all bashing the POSSIBILITY of a new low cost Croatian airline regardless of any additional detailed information simply because its Croatian.

JAT_boy_BEG · Post by **JAT_boy_BEG** » 12 Jan 2006, 00:41

hey, hey, hey.....no need for the racist comments. no seriously.

JAT has a bigger chance on going to Australia as it has done it before and can do it again. JAT is serving how many destinations across the Euro-Meditearranean again, please some one tell me?

How many destinations is this "new low cost carrier" serving?

for the new low cost togo to Australia is like building a house but starting with the roof.