ETOPS and LROPS in the South

chornedsnorkack · Post by **chornedsnorkack** » 18 Nov 2005, 10:45

As of now, the maximum ETOPS available is 180 generally. ETOPS 207 is available only in North Pacific, only in case of airport closures - nowhere else. There is no LROPS - 3 and 4 engine planes can flow as far as they like without the extra precautions twins are subject to.

Which governments are prepared to have ETOPS higher than 180, like ETOPS 240 or ETOPS 330, or LROPS?

For example, does it affect airplane market if US were to allow ETOPS 330? You do not need it in the US anyway. I think that even American Samoa is reachable with ETOPS 180, so an US privilege of ETOPS 330 might be worth very little?

Where the high ETOPS-es and LROPS really matter is South Pacific and South Indian Ocean, and Antarctic. So, obviously, what matters is what the governments of nearby countries - Australia, NZ, South Africa, France, Chile, Argentina, Mauritius - think of ETOPS and LROPS. Does anyone know their opinion?

vc-10 · Post by **vc-10** » 18 Nov 2005, 16:42

I think that these sort of things only are used for trans-oceanic flights, and therefore ETOPS 240 would only be used on Europe-South America, US-Japan and Southafrica-Australia runs, I think. Routes like LHR-Carribean are not too long, and there are the Azores in between.

chornedsnorkack · Post by **chornedsnorkack** » 19 Nov 2005, 11:18

vc-10 wrote:I think that these sort of things only are used for trans-oceanic flights, and therefore ETOPS 240 would only be used on Europe-South America, US-Japan and Southafrica-Australia runs, I think. Routes like LHR-Carribean are not too long, and there are the Azores in between.

Europe-South America does not really need high ETOPSes, because there are the Cape Verde islands and it is not too far from there to the northeast Brazil.

In US-Japan, there are no ETOPS 180 no-go areas in North Pacific if all airports work. There are the Alaska and Aleutians to the north, and Hawaii and Midway to the south. However, there is ETOPS 207 in case there is bad weather or volcanic ash in Alaska and diversion airports close.

There are talks that if ETOPS 240 were to get through, the Midway airport would shut down.

South Africa-Australia runs need high ETOPS in the southern Indian Ocean. Especially if Mauritius were to close, e. g. for bad weather.

bigjulie · Post by **bigjulie** » 26 Nov 2005, 19:42

Here is the 180 ETOPS from AKL-LAX

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=CHC- ... &ETOPS=180

jal · Post by **jal** » 26 Nov 2005, 20:57

Thanks very much bigjulie for the useful link

bigjulie · Post by **bigjulie** » 27 Nov 2005, 03:29

No problem. :laugh:

KiwiKid · Post by **KiwiKid** » 10 Jan 2006, 06:21

In New Zealand the term EROPS has been applied to some 733s, but at my airport the engineers still refer to Qantas 733s as ETOPS or non ETOPS.

With the phasing out of Air NZ's 744 fleet for a mix of 777-200/300 the status of Jarvis Island, south of Hawaii has become important. The 777 appears to fly USA to Christchurch (CHC). Possibly from LAX or SFO.

The Government of Kirabati has begun talks about use of Christmas Island's long runway. I am unsure but suspect this is formed from crushed coral gravel and not asphalt/concrete.

Perhaps someone else could clarify ?

I know Lan Chile fly direct to New Zealand. Not sure what they use ?
Easter island would be the only reasonable alternate airport.

Some of the diverts in the South Pacific are almost half the total distance again. Imagine flying Santiago to Auckland and finding AKL closed. Does one then fly all the way back to Easter Island ?

fokker_f27 · Post by **fokker_f27** » 10 Jan 2006, 22:07

Time for me to learn something. I have read what ETOPS means, but I still only know it has something to do with a time rule. Can someone please explain what ETOPS and LROPS are?

chornedsnorkack · Post by **chornedsnorkack** » 11 Jan 2006, 16:03

fokker_f27 wrote:Time for me to learn something. I have read what ETOPS means, but I still only know it has something to do with a time rule. Can someone please explain what ETOPS and LROPS are?

ETOPS officially is
Extended-range
Twin(jet)
Operating
Performance
Standards

Less officially, it is

Engines
Turn
Or
Passengers
Swim

LROPS does not now exist
It means
Long
Range
Operating
Performance
Standards

And they differ by country.
ICAO requires that, without special privileges, twinjets flying commercially should stay within 90 minutes of diversion.
But individual countries are allowed to make more restrictive rules.

Which United States do. In US, twinjets with no additional safety precautions are permitted to fly 60 minutes to diversion - not 90.

This rule applies to twinjets - trijets and quadjets are permitted to fly as far as they have the fuel reserves to divert from, as long as they meet the safety sufficient for twinjets flying less than 60 minutes from diversion.

And then there is the ETOPS - achieved for A300, B767 and B757. Basically, if they show certain performance standards are met, airlines can receive privileges to fly ETOPS 75, ETOPS 90 (in US - in Europe, all twinjets can fly up to 90 minutes under the shorthaul standards), ETOPS 120 or ETOPS 180.

In addition, there is ETOPS 138: airlines with ETOPS 138 privileges are allowed to continue on established routes passable with ETOPS 120 if some diversion airports are temporarily shut, provided they are within 138 minutes of the remaining diversion ports.

And likewise there is ETOPS 207 - only in North Pacific.

Now, some people are claiming that flying far from diversions can be unsafe even on multiengine planes, and extra precautions should be imposed on multiengine planes flying such routes. These are called LROPS - but have not been imposed so far.

What does NZ government think of the safety of planes flying in Pacific far from airports, esp. with diversion ports shut?

sab319 · Post by **sab319** » 11 Jan 2006, 16:37

KiwiKid wrote: I know Lan Chile fly direct to New Zealand. Not sure what they use ?
Easter island would be the only reasonable alternate airport.

A340-300

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 11 Jan 2006, 21:11

Thanks chornedsnorkack for your explaination. Permish me however to add slight corrections concerning ETOPS and LROPS accronyms:

ETOPS:
Extended-range Twin-engine OPerationS

LROPS:
Long Range OPerationS

Regards

Seb.

fokker_f27 · Post by **fokker_f27** » 11 Jan 2006, 21:47

That makes sence, I remember our Co 764 had " ETOPS 60 " on it.

chornedsnorkack · Post by **chornedsnorkack** » 24 Jan 2006, 14:21

KiwiKid wrote:In New Zealand the term EROPS has been applied to some 733s, but at my airport the engineers still refer to Qantas 733s as ETOPS or non ETOPS.

What does ETOPS require in NZ and Australia?

It looks that the middle of Tasman Sea is a bit farther than 60 minutes from diversion, but less than 90 minutes.