IST-BRU SN3268 10 Nov: drunken pax tried to open a door

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 11 Nov 2005, 21:24

Dear Dave,

I know that you are a journalist and let me first say that I probably didn't choose my words correctly when writing that comment. instead of "always" I should have written "usually". I will edit it asap in order to prevent any further confusion.

First of all let me say that I respect your profession a lot and that I don't have anything against journalists. They are bringing us the news and without them we wouldn't have all the info we have. But this doesn't mean that we have to believe everything as well. We need to be critic with information we get.

Now let me come back to my statement:

dna wrote: Journalists deal with facts, and I see nothing but facts in the story as it was reproduced here.

Of course those are only facts. But by reading the story everybody gets the impression that it's possible to open the door in mid air and that thanks to the presence of the two policemen the crash was avoided.

Look at member dre's response! He was in that flight and mentions that there was NO danger at any time. Further on he mentions that if the policemen were not on board normal pax would have assisted.
Those are also facts aren't they ?
Why didn't the author include the fact that there was no danger at all during that occurance ? This would have made the story complete wouldn't it ? But it would also give the story a less sensational meaning since this would rule out the "near catastrophe". Now don't tell me the author didn't knew that....

The story writer was not turning it into a sensational story. Nowhere does the story suggest that the man came close to opening the door, or that it is indeed possible to do such thing.

He's not writing in a sensational way I agree. I also agree that he doesn't say that it is possible to open the door, but he doesn't deny it as well does he ? !!!. IMHO it is sensational in an indirect way. By writing the article the way he did it will inevitably make the people conclude that we were nearly having a catastrophe. At least that's my perception after reading the article several times. it's maybe because dutch isn't my native language, but I'm sure other people will agree with me.

Get your facts straight before posting generalised comments, especially when these comments are completely unfounded.

Well everybody may think what he wants when reading articles and I already had enough experience with other articles that let me indeed conclude that usually journalists tend to make out of some minor news something sensational.

Now don't take this as an offend. I'm not saying that you are doing so

Kind Regards
Chris

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 11 Nov 2005, 21:36

100% agree with Avro! Maybve we should open a topic called " list of journalist's mistakes when reading about aviation" We could get 1000's of examples!

Anyway luckily no-one was hurt! Silly people if you get hammered but start behaving weirdly having done so, do it on the ground, not in the air!

Vincent

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 11 Nov 2005, 21:38

The story ends in a good way. Passengers, crew and aircraft lands in a good condition, that's important. In meanwhile the guy is now on a SNBA list for forbidden passengers. He is the forth one in the short history of SNBA.

I think that the crew did a good job and also thanks to the two policeman on board of that aircraft.

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 11 Nov 2005, 21:40

Atlantis wrote: In meanwhile the guy is now on a SNBA list for forbidden passengers. He is the forth one in the short history of SNBA.

Already 4 ?? Are we belgian that bad ??

I hope that guy gets some more sanctions than just being on SN's blacklist. It's a behavior that should be sanctioned very hardly.

Chris

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 11 Nov 2005, 22:04

If those other 3 are Belgians I don't know? An airline would not have only a blacklist for the own citizens also for foreign pax.

I think that's a good reaction of SNBA, what kind of sanction he diserved I don't care that's a case for justice.

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 11 Nov 2005, 22:09

Atlantis wrote:If those other 3 are Belgians I don't know? An airline would not have only a blacklist for the own citizens also for foreign pax.

You're right about that. and do you know for what reason they were put on the blacklist ?

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 11 Nov 2005, 22:19

I can't give you the specific reason but those people caused big problems on aircrafts. It were not small problems but bringing pax, crew and aircraft in danger is a crime. For that reason exists blacklists.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 12 Nov 2005, 14:50

The Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf now also has the news:

http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/2843 ... lucht.html

This is what journalists tell "the public: Ongeveer halverwege de vlucht liep de man naar de deur en begon hem open te maken. Twee toevallig aanwezige agenten konden hem overmeesteren en de deur dichthouden.

Translated, this is: "About half way the flight, the man went to the door and started to open it. Tho policemen, who just happened to be there, could overpower him, and could keep the door closed."

No sign in the article about the fact that it's impossible to open a door high in the sky.

dna · Post by **dna** » 12 Nov 2005, 14:57

Here we go again.

No sign in the article about the fact that it's impossible to open a door high in the sky.

I'm not saying or pretending that journalists never make mistakes, but I wish you would also quote newspapers like De Morgen or even this forum's favourite Het Laatste Nieuws. They both present the story accurately today. They both write that it is impossible to open the door in-flight. A spokesman for SN explains this in the article carried by De Morgen, and Het Laatste Nieuws quotes aviation expert Herman De Wulf who says just the same thing.

Dave

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 12 Nov 2005, 15:11

dna, don't shoot the pianist: I'm just telling what Dutch readers hear about the incident. And that is that the 2 policemen "managed to keep the door closed".

dna · Post by **dna** » 12 Nov 2005, 15:27

Don't worry LX-LGX, I'm not pointing my gun at you, or anyone for that matter

My point is just that the press is sometimes said to always be sensationalist. I was just giving a few examples to prove the opposite. And yes, I have noticed that De Morgen has not lost someone's phone number since he joined SNBA

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 12 Nov 2005, 18:06

dna wrote: My point is just that the press is sometimes said to always be sensationalist.

Yeah I wonder who sais that

Anyway, it's nice to see that the belgian press mentions the fact that opening a door is not possible. The dutch press could learn from us belgians

Chris

MD-11er · Post by **MD-11er** » 12 Nov 2005, 18:12

dre wrote:Hi everybody,

I was on board this aircraft. SN crew did a good job.

Greetz

Dre

Hi Dre,

Weren't you seated on seat 14B by any chance???

MD-11er

earthman · Post by **earthman** » 12 Nov 2005, 22:27

Avro wrote:
Avro wrote:Due to the Delta_P difference between the inside and outside it'll be impossible for the guy to open the door.
Let's make things a little bit more clear with some numbers:

Let's assume the follwoing:

- a door has an area of 2 m^2 (I don't know the real dimensions)
- pressure at 9000ft is approx 75000Pa
- pressure at 33000ft is approx 30000Pa

All those figures are approximations since they depend on local weather phenomena.

Now this means we have a Delta_P of 45000Pa

A pressure is a Force/Area [N/m^2]:

This means that the force acting on the door is roughly: 45000*2= 90000 N

This means that the guy has to pull the door with more than 90000N to be able to open it at cruising level.

Isn't that about the thrust produced by the engine of a 777?

On another note, can anyone provide me with some information concerning the safety mechanism which prevents the in-flight opening of emergency exits which open outward? Like the 737NG? There is such a system, right???

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 12 Nov 2005, 22:32

earthman wrote: Isn't that about the thrust produced by the engine of a 777?

I thought the thrust of a B777 GE90 is around 300kN so quite a bit more.
And by the way the figure of 90kN was only to indicate that the force is very high. To have the exact figure we need to use correct assumptions about pressures and dimensions....

I'll lsearch for the emergency exits.

Chris

dre · Post by **dre** » 13 Nov 2005, 01:37

MD11 MAN

14B is correct ! How do you know this?
Greetz

Dre

MD-11er · Post by **MD-11er** » 13 Nov 2005, 02:25

dre wrote:MD11 MAN

14B is correct ! How do you know this?
Greetz

Dre

I always know everything

Or almost

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 13 Nov 2005, 03:14

dre :

Big Brother is between us (not the television program but the real one, from Orwell's 1984)

dre · Post by **dre** » 13 Nov 2005, 09:04

Hi!

scary !!!

Dre

MD-11er · Post by **MD-11er** » 13 Nov 2005, 11:37

dre wrote:Hi!

scary !!!

Dre

I always try to know everything and in the other case I always think I know everything.

Another example wasn't the scary pax seated 2 rows behind you???