The Great Train VS Plane debate

[Comet]

See Paris with the change of station.

I detest Paris public transport. We have had more hassles and problems with the Paris Metro (trains too short, no proper luggage space etc) than I care to think about. The Paris Metro is not a patch on the London Underground, at least our London trains are long and very regular.

I have no happy memories of public transport in Paris at all, from the taxis that never turn up when the hotel phones them for you, to taxi drivers who do not know the way to where you want to be, to Metro trains which are too short and wholly unpleasant when you have luggage but you have no choice but to use them because the :censored: taxi hasn't arrived and you need to catch the bus to the most awful airport in Europe (CDG T2). I don't see the appeal of that city at all, I don't know how people can return to it year after year, I am always glad to leave the godforsaken place! I do have reasons for detesting that city but I won't go into it here.

But back to the topic - trains do present a big advantage compared to the bus, but not the plane.

[Airbus330lover]

I detest Paris public transport. We have had more hassles and problems with the Paris Metro (trains too short, no proper luggage space etc) than I care to think about. The Paris Metro is not a patch on the London Underground, at least our London trains are long and very regular.

Reason to avoid the city. If you can take a train from BRU or AMS to Lyon, Marseille for example, try the comparison. Not always in favour of the train or the plane. Depend on days, connections. My opinion for a 4-5 h travel, still discutable

[sn26567]

I have not taken a plane from LHR to Bruseels since many years. To me the comfort of Eurostar in first class was unrivalled. But on 3 November I have to come back from LHR by plane because of cost, as it is a part of a triangular flight BRU-MAN-LHR-BRU (all on a BA ticket in Y class, but with an SN flight in ARJ85 for the first leg, a B757 for the second one and an A319 for the last one).

I will tell you my impressions.

[Vinnie-Winnie]

My Belgium to England experience

As I mentioned in other posts, I have travelled regularly between Limal (20 miles from Brussels) and Reading (40 miles from London) for 3 years. Here are my thoughts:

First of all, I have Biased view against the Eurostar. Simple reason Being that Reading is to the west of London and therefore it was much more easier to fly to LHR. At least I didn't have to have a horrible journey with 30Kg of luggage through London by underground! Anyways that doesn't justify my preference for the plane so let me write a more detailed view of both:

Eurostar:


As mentioned above it wasn't very suitable for me. But anyway here are a few events I had with it:

-5 hours delay because of a power failure in England (was in the train that time)
-45 min delay due to congestion on Britain's busy south-east network
-1 hour delay due to someone committing suicide in France.

Other than that Getting to Brussels-Midi from my place was a hassle! Either by train or by car it took at least 1 hour! Then there is the boredom of sitting in a train doing nothing! Nothing never happens! U'r basically stuck for 2h30 mins doing absolutely nothing! And let's not mention the silly stop at Ashford international and Calais that really did my head in! And yeah the crying babies and drunken people In my experience U don't have that many in planes!

And have u seen the loadfactor? Silly SNCB/NMBS makes big losses on the eurostar....


Plane:


Delay wise well not too much to say really!!! 2 or 3 times there was too much fog at Heathrow! Meaning that I had to wait 3 or 4 hours before boarding my plane! Not fun I must admit, but had more delays on the eurostar even though I used it less!

Otherwise it's funny, it's quick (seems like it anyway), U get a complementary snack and for the time U spend not getting bored on the train you actually walk around the terminals which at least keeps you busy!

One bad thing though is the 200 pounds I had to spend in July 2004 for excess luggage

That's it for me...

[sn26567]

And let's not mention the silly stop at Ashford international and Calais

Is it not rather Lille?

What I appreciate in the Eurostar is exactly what you don't like: two and a half hours quietness to read the newspaper and prepare my dossiers for the upcoming meeting.

And as I can travel first class on trains (vs Economy on planes), I do not see a lot of drunkards, unless myself when I complete the return journey with champagne on Eurostar's costs

[chornedsnorkack]

Another factor that is difficult to estimate: aircraft fuel is free of tax, whereas train operators buy power just like any company or private individual.

You have to take into account the high fuel costs and the additional taxes due to security increase (post 2001).

Can't agree with you, sorry!
High fuel costs are a difficulty to all industries and to all transportation companies in particular. Though probably fuel cost is a larger part of total cost for airlines than for train operators.

One would expect that trains are completely unaffected by fuel costs, because they are powered by hydroelectric stations and nuclear stations, neither of which use fuel!

[Vinnie-Winnie]

And let's not mention the silly stop at Ashford international and Calais

Is it not rather Lille?

What I appreciate in the Eurostar is exactly what you don't like: two and a half hours quietness to read the newspaper and prepare my dossiers for the upcoming meeting.

Well I was travelling as a student so it was more a matter of getting a cheap ticket!

Back to the fuel topic though:

I got no idea how electricity works but I assume that day and night the electricity is switched on on railways which use electrical power! SNCB has a 200 million contract for 3 years with Electrabel and uses 3% of the total consumption of electricity in BE! Moneywise that's quit a lot! I believe this amount includes various taxes!


Airlines on the other hand only pay the market price of petrol! Not fair!


Wouldn't it be better to introduce pollution permits? For everyone?

[sn26567]

They do NOT however pay the tax known as "accijns" in Dutch, or "accises" (I think) in French, don't know what to call it in English?

Excise tax. It is a typical Belgian word, both in French and in Flemish.

[Comet]

Comparing costs of rail travel in Belgium and the UK, it is certainly cheaper in Belgium and you know where you are with them. Here in the UK, a return ticket is not twice the price of a single ticket, it is somewhere in between. Here in the UK it is extremely expensive to travel by rain on a Friday compared to other days.

And of course in the UK, we do not have those delightful double decker trains for busy times, we merely have trains which are much shorter than normal!

Finnish trains are also very good, much nicer than many UK ones, but of course my favourite ones are the Belgian ones. I have often said to VC10 that it is preferable to travel on a sh*tty in Belgium than a TGV in France.

And I would love a ride in the German ICE train which goes to Frankfurt, I was lucky enough to see it in Brussels Noord a few weeks ago but did not get chance to bag it so the only ICE I have in my collection at the moment is the Dutch Railways one, also taken at Brussels Noord.

[chornedsnorkack]

It is not trivial to switch energy sources!

Airplanes run on oil. No other choice. No one has taken off on a coal-burning plane, and I do not think gas is that practical, either. Hydropower and nuclear power are also useless.

Cars likewise need oil. Coal and electricity are much more troublesome and expensive.

Oil is relatively easy to transport, so it becomes expensive everywhere at the time. Which means that planes and cars either become expensive or are grounded.

By contrast, the network electricity can be produced from thermal stations using solid fuel like coal, or from hydropower, or nuclear stations. Electricity can be transported, but I think it is more difficult than transporting oil. And sure, electricity can be produced from oil - but which proportion of electricity in thermal stations comes from oil rather than solid fuels?

France, a major user of TGV, uses little coal. And France has a lot of hydroenergy and nuclear energy production.

[earthman]

Here in the UK it is extremely expensive to travel by rain on a Friday compared to other days.

I thought the UK had a large supply of rain, which would drive the price down? Or is Friday some kind of special dry day?

[Comet]

Here in the UK it is extremely expensive to travel by rain on a Friday compared to other days.

I thought the UK had a large supply of rain, which would drive the price down? Or is Friday some kind of special dry day?

That damned college computer has a crappy keyboard

And yes, you are right about the large supply of rain, it's peeing it down as I write this!

[Vinnie-Winnie]

The UK train system to some extend like an Airline: Supply and Demand!

So obviously it's quit expensive to travel on peak times, whereas it can be be dirt cheap to travel off-peak (cheapest ticket in March 2004 was 25 quid from London to Edinburgh. excellent price whichI truly enjoyed myself!)
But don't travel long distances at the last minute! Try to do the same on an airline and it will cost U even more.
About Fixed prices on shorter distances and there yeah I must admit wasn't really in favour of these artificially high prices! Saying that the south of the UK is about 1,6 more expensive than Mainland Europe so U got to put things in perspective!

Belgium in perspective offers really cheap prices! This is part of an unfair subsidy system which favours a few but ennoys most who don't use the train system. (a bit fftopic: but as a matter of fact Belgium's government takes 47% of its gdp in taxes vs 37% in the Uk for example!) That's why Comet U might enjoy your train journeys here but I consider you as a free-rider since I part pay for your transport. ( )

Also don't worry peak trains are absolutely full aswell! Double-deckers are only used on long distance trains which don't favour most commuters!

I so wish that all transport modes would actually be considered to be equal!!!! Which unfortunately is not the case here!

[chornedsnorkack]

The UK train system to some extend like an Airline: Supply and Demand!

Sure. But that depends on various cost factors...

So obviously it's quit expensive to travel on peak times, whereas it can be be dirt cheap to travel off-peak (cheapest ticket in March 2004 was 25 quid from London to Edinburgh. excellent price whichI truly enjoyed myself!)

Certainly, the demand fluctuates... the question is whether the supply remains there and lowers prices or vanishes as soon as the prices drop, that is, whether the planes and trains keep operating in off-peak times or simply stay in stations and airports.

But don't travel long distances at the last minute! Try to do the same on an airline and it will cost U even more.

Last minute in peak times or off-peak times?

Also don't worry peak trains are absolutely full aswell! Double-deckers are only used on long distance trains which don't favour most commuters!

Logically - all the climbing to upper deck and back in stations. So, commuter trains have to be one deck, plenty of doors, wide aisles to move and stand. And a lot of them is needed...

[A318]

After done some reading in this topic I just have to react on some points.
After some european train experiences I should choose for the train instead of a plane up to 5 hours.
For example to go to Paris I don't even look at ticket prices anymore, I prefer Thalys.
It is fast, comfortabel with (Comet!) a guarenteed seat and the most direct in the shortest time possible.
In less then 3 hours in the heart of Paris, only going to the airport takes me already 1:15 hour!!!
Paris has a marvelous subway system which is fast, reliable and even it is busy due to the tourists you can always squeeze in.
Also the trip to London was excelent by eurostar, again fast, comfortable and it brings you the closest you can get in the citycenter.

Also now with all environment issues I think the competition is even going to get bigger between trains and planes.
They will start adding environment taxes on plane tickets sooner or later which will make the plane even expensiver.
When europe should have the japanese bullet trains, competition will be won by the trains, I mean going by train almost the cruise speed from a Fokker 50 will drag even more people into these trains.
KLM already noticed this and is now one of the biggest investors of the high speed track between Amsterdam and Paris.
With this action KLM will always earn money from people travelling between Paris and Amsterdam vv even they travel by high speed train, a very smart move.

If it was possible to travel for example from Brussels on a direct high speed train to Barcelona for sure I would take this train instead of a plane, all dependig on the price ofcourse.
If I should have to pay double for a train ticket the plane would win anyway but otherwise for sure the train.

Or wouldn't you like a ride in this:



Greetz,

Erwin

[chornedsnorkack]

After done some reading in this topic I just have to react on some points.
After some european train experiences I should choose for the train instead of a plane up to 5 hours.
For example to go to Paris I don't even look at ticket prices anymore, I prefer Thalys.
It is fast, comfortabel with (Comet!) a guarenteed seat and the most direct in the shortest time possible.
In less then 3 hours in the heart of Paris, only going to the airport takes me already 1:15 hour!!!
Paris has a marvelous subway system which is fast, reliable and even it is busy due to the tourists you can always squeeze in.
Also the trip to London was excelent by eurostar, again fast, comfortable and it brings you the closest you can get in the citycenter.

I think there are loading gauge issues - Britain wound up with a narrower ones - and there is a shortage of trains going past London.

When europe should have the japanese bullet trains, competition will be won by the trains, I mean going by train almost the cruise speed from a Fokker 50 will drag even more people into these trains.

They are there already! Shinkansen opened in 1964. TGV and AVE are newer, and TGV is faster as in records achieved on test tracks. But Japanese have updated, too. I think they have scheduled stop-to-stop speed of 261,8 km/h on one stretch.

KLM already noticed this and is now one of the biggest investors of the high speed track between Amsterdam and Paris.
With this action KLM will always earn money from people travelling between Paris and Amsterdam vv even they travel by high speed train, a very smart move.

If it was possible to travel for example from Brussels on a direct high speed train to Barcelona for sure I would take this train instead of a plane, all dependig on the price ofcourse.

Are Marseilles and Nice served now direct from Brussels?

I think TGV is short of night stock. They tried running some trains at night, but sitting in ordinary seats from 0.30 to 5.30 is not so attractive.

Or wouldn't you like a ride in this:



Greetz,

Erwin

Nice nose.

I looked and the Shinkansen have broader loading gauge than in Europe - they started from clean slate, so first of all they built their trains with relatively wide bodies. Width up to 345 cm outside. They routinely put in 5 abreast. But they also try cramming in 6 abreast - which is not so good, comparing with Boeing 737 (376 cm outside) or Airbus 320 family (395 cm outside).

[Airbus330lover]

Are Marseilles and Nice served now direct from Brussels?

I think TGV is short of night stock. They tried running some trains at night, but sitting in ordinary seats from 0.30 to 5.30 is not so attractive.

Yes we have direct HST from brussels to Marseille in about 5 hour travel.
For Nice..... the train use normal lines between Marseille and Nice and... max speed is about 120 km/h max Travel time for the last km is too high