15 October 2005: D-day BRU

Zenfookpower · Post by **Zenfookpower** » 15 Oct 2005, 02:45

pascal-air wrote:
Avro wrote:
I would say it's cheaper to centralize everything into one airport. Staring to cut everything into small parts and share them wit hall airports in Belgium will cost a lot of money and won't be a good solution.

Chris

When I were young, (OK i am not so old) I thought like you. I am working into another domain (IT) and if you do not know it, IT is being into a deep migration, involving delocalisation (India, may be China....). Sometimes it succeeds, sometimes it fails with some dramas like suicides (one HP employee commit suicide last week, and directly linked with delocalisation)

All that to told you that the cheapest cost is not always concentration, and neither delocalisation! The equation is quite complex. Anyway, here this is not just an equation about costs, but the equation involves environment, citizens and politic and many other actors! The equation is a little bit more complex than just numbers. So the winner will be the man who will be able to solve it.

However, many people are trusting he got the truth... I do not have it, I am hoping that someone will find it...

I am following the events about the demise of BRU airport very close. However your last post is a "blank" for me.. I cannot understand your position.. I think you don't like the suggestion of having a Belgian air port as a centralized unit.. I completely diagree with your premise..

Belgium is so small.. and is on the other hand a very important "first" port of call in Europe..( EU, the hub for EU railroad system for freight and passengers, etc...)
Business sense is telling me that it should be a central hub.. Now all Belgians are voting their government into office..So whatever the outcome of the current crisis is, remains a Belgian issue.. The consequences of course will also be affecting the Belgian people, employement, etc.. The examples of DHL are just the tip of the iceberg ..

Within the framework of globalization an airport with all these kind of restrictions will NEVER be attractive and hence will never be in the business plan of any company wanting to do business in the EU..

Having said this and knowing very well the "politics" of Belgium .. I strongly suggest that the Flemish voters do what needs to be done.. Take full control of the BRU airport and separate from the rest of Belgium and become an independent nation.. Then all the disputes with Brussel etc.. need to be resolved by the EU government.. and I hope that within the EU common sense will prevail.. If not .. then the EU will never make it..

Just an opinion from an outsider who lived in Belgium for 35 years..

Good luck to all involved...

Sebas · Post by **Sebas** » 15 Oct 2005, 06:07

Fog around Brussels at the dawn of this very important day...

EBBR 150320Z 04001KT 0100 R25L/0250V0450N R25R/0250N R02/0300VP1500D FG SCT001 09/09 Q1027 NOSIG

I continue to hope for BCMG CAVOK, politically and operationally!

Airbus330lover · Post by **Airbus330lover** » 15 Oct 2005, 11:37

Acid-drop wrote:Well, ... actually, the railway network in belgium is quite good.
And they are improving it. I know they are making a new connection between brussels airport and the line to leuven and liege (which is highspeed) ... this could connect liege airport and brussels aiport in like 40 min, both for humans and freight. Why not .... liege has already some plan to be connected to paris and cologne via a special freight version of the high speed train.

I think there is also a plan to make a train station in charleroi airport (which is not too close from any existing one).

We could connect any airport together and call it "Belgium airport"

It's surely not a solution.
Don't forget.... you have to go twice through security, twice waiting time, longer transit delays.....

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 15 Oct 2005, 15:11

could be off topic:

yes, they're spending money for Liège and the TGV/HST connection.

Meanwhile, it's impossible to take a direct train from Antwerp to BRU, but it's possible to take a direct train from Antwerp to AMS.

Meanwhile, all international trains Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam pass ANR: there's a stop in Berchem-station, some 5 kms from ANR-airport.

The railway line is some 50 metres from ANR main entrance (not 500 metres: just 50 metres!). With 3% of the budget spent on LGG-airport, one could set up Antwerp-Airport railway station.

Acid-drop · Post by **Acid-drop** » 15 Oct 2005, 15:32

Zenfookpower wrote:Having said this and knowing very well the "politics" of Belgium .. I strongly suggest that the Flemish voters do what needs to be done.. Take full control of the BRU airport and separate from the rest of Belgium and become an independent nation.. Then all the disputes with Brussel etc.. need to be resolved by the EU government.. and I hope that within the EU common sense will prevail.. If not .. then the EU will never make it..

***removed***
Thanks god, only a very few percentage of the flemish population think like that.

LX-LGX wrote:The railway line is some 50 metres from ANR main entrance (not 500 metres: just 50 metres!). With 3% of the budget spent on LGG-airport, one could set up Antwerp-Airport railway station.

I completely agree with you. Every city should have its part of the cake.
But dont forget that a massive percentage of the b-rail investment went for the harbour of Antwerp. Also, the HST connection in Antwerp-central cost twice more than the one in liege. So yeah ... they should get a station for their airport, as well as in liege (it's still a plan for now, nothing is decided yet). I really hope both will get it.

PS : liege airport is also 50 meters away from the high speed line between liege and brussels.
Check : LIEGE AIRPORT

[Harsh language removed. Please stay polite to eachother.]

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 15 Oct 2005, 18:27

People, can we stay at the topic please

If you are not agree with each other use the PM, but do this not on topics.

Post by **sn26567** » 16 Oct 2005, 10:02

Atlantis wrote:People, can we stay at the topic please

If you are not agree with each other use the PM, but do this not on topics.

I second these nice words!

Too much extreme language has been used in this topic. I have been absent for a few days and could not react immediately, butI will not hesitate to remove any extremist views if they are expressed again. No politics here on Luchtzak, please!

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 16 Oct 2005, 10:45

As you all know it's waiting for the moment at the final decision.

In the night from Friday to Saturday the Flemish government gave a new plan. That new plan is more in the direction of the Brussels plan. Some people are investigate it.

They have to discuss now 4 points, mostly weekend flights and how to get they save at the airport.

Thursday we will know more and hopefully it will be good news.

Post by **Bruspotter** » 16 Oct 2005, 17:13

Hi All!

So there isn't yet a final discission? I didn't missed a thing? Well , I'm impatiently waiting , I'm curious and afraid together , don't know what to think. A stupid decision I will take them for always angry.

LX-LGX wrote:

Regi, if I was in charge, I would react tot the stupid noise regulation from Brussels Capital Region like this:

1. allow all charters to land in BRU

2. send planes coming from Strassbourg and Luxembourg to Liège

3. send planes from other business destinations to Antwerp or Ostend

4. check the triple language knowledge from all taxi drivers at BRU (NL-FR-ENG) and refuse permit to only French speaking taxi drivers.

Why all business jets land in ANR or OST? If those people want to come to BRU , they should get what they've paid for. Those people rent a plane specially to land right next to were they have to work ...etc...not to take another bus , train or taxi. (although ANR and OST would be happy with that

)And the pax who are coming from Strassbourg and Luxembourg will be very happy if they have to change at EBLG. And than those airlines have to drop their routes in fact and start a new route EBLG-Strassbourg/Luxembourg. Passengers want be happy with that.

But I admit that finding a good solution is hard , but there must be one , or even more. Hope they aren't negligent this time.

Let's hope and pray.

Best regards: Yannick

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 18 Oct 2005, 18:53

BIAC has said njet to the new plans of Flanders. The flemish government announced a new plan last weekend. In that couple of days they studied it and according to BIAC it's very dangerous: a lot more changes to have a collision.

Today the three governments are together for the final meeting.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 18 Oct 2005, 19:30

Bruspotter,

Brussels want that tourists and businessmen/women spend money in Brussels, Brussels want them to stay over in Brussels, Brussels want them to eat & drink in Brussels, Brusseels want them to buy souvenirs in Brussels, Brussels want them to use taxis or coaches from Brussels, Brussels want them to rent business space and meeting rooms in Brussels. But Brussels doesn't want the noise, caused by bringing these golden eggs to Brussels.

So let's take these tourists elsewhere, and let them spend their money elsewhere: where people accept the noise, because they know it means employment.

Let's just do it for a few weeks, and Brussels will beg us to send the planes back to Brussels.

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 18 Oct 2005, 23:07

LX-LGX wrote:So let's take these tourists elsewhere, and let them spend their money elsewhere: where people accept the noise, because they know it means employment.

Never meet anyone who liked noise! Wherever you are, people will always complain about noise pollution! Whether it's because of a nightclub, a busy road, a railway line, no-one likes it at all! I don't find it silly to complain about noise at all! Let's just have a good balance between people's quality of life and economic issues!

That's why spreading flights is a good short term solution! it's fair and doesn't disadvantage anyone! But as usual every party involved only thinks about it's own interest, which in a country like Belgium creates political Chaos!!!

Wish everyone could sleep like I do

We got burgled the alarm went on but I never woke up

(And the noise that an alarm makes is just 10 times as bad as an airplane believe me

)

pascal-air · Post by **pascal-air** » 18 Oct 2005, 23:17

LX-LGX wrote:Bruspotter,

Brussels want that tourists and businessmen/women spend money in Brussels, Brussels want them to stay over in Brussels, Brussels want them to eat & drink in Brussels, Brusseels want them to buy souvenirs in Brussels, Brussels want them to use taxis or coaches from Brussels, Brussels want them to rent business space and meeting rooms in Brussels. But Brussels doesn't want the noise, caused by bringing these golden eggs to Brussels.

So let's take these tourists elsewhere, and let them spend their money elsewhere: where people accept the noise, because they know it means employment.

Let's just do it for a few weeks, and Brussels will beg us to send the planes back to Brussels.

First of all, I do not think that Brussels is well known to be a major place for tourism (except the Grand Place)! You have some tourists, but usually they are just making a european tour and brussels is just a step in their tour (Paris, London, etc are even much more exciting than Brussels).

Nowadays, Brussels airport is more a hub airport than a final destination for tourism. There are some people for business, or some people just in transit. You have freight too.

So I am completely disagree with you. Moreover, you are saying that the tourism represents for Brussels a major source of revenue and employment.

[last sentence removed because of harsh language by admin sn26567]

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 18 Oct 2005, 23:38

Pascal Air!

the last bit of your interesting post (Totally agree with you with the first 2 paragraphs btw) is just plane rude!

When moderators say no personal remarks they mean it! Both our posts will probably be deleted by tomorrow! Avoid them at all costs! Do they bring anything to this debate?

Well No i'm afraid!

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 19 Oct 2005, 00:16

Amazing to see that some don't know that regular flights are used for both incoming and outgoing tourism. Amazing to see that some don't know the impact of Brussels as international tourism destination.

Overnights in Belgium by Belgian citizens, 2002: 13.189.212 (this includes Centerparcs and Sunparks)
Overnights in Belgium by non-Belgian citizens, 2002: 15.903.329

Brussels: 2.378.044 bednights
Bruges: 1.245.169 bednights
Antwerp: 1.136.208 bednights
Ghent: 512.008 bednights
Liège: 243.036 bednights

Without airport, Brussels wouldn't be a MICE destination.

Without airport, Brussels wouldn't have the European Parliament & E.U.

That's my message of the last replies: Brussels is the first to take advantage from airport traffic, but they don't want the accept the disadvantages. Let's face them with it. If you want the tourists and business men/women, please allow them to fly in.

(I didn't said the Flemish Region is happy with the noise planes are making. But there is common sense in the north that noise is a disadvantage we'll have to accept from an airport. And on condition of course that all Belgians accept it.)

Post by **sn26567** » 19 Oct 2005, 09:39

Just a small remark: would tourists in Brussels be happy to ba woken up in the middle of the night by planes landing on 07. To keep Brussels attractive as a tourist (and business) destination, the 2,378,044 people who spend their nights there should have quiet nights.

Few people complained in 1999, when only winds dictated the runways to use. And traffic was more important at that time than now. Why not revert to that situation?

Due to dominant winds from SW, the Noordrand would of course be at a disadvantage, but this is the least populated area around the airport. It should not be too difficult to pay them a good phonic insulation, as the walloon region is doing for Liège.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 19 Oct 2005, 10:20

I didn't said we have to send all planes through 07: off course this had to be spread, prefer indeed back to the 1999 situation.

If Flanders adapts the same noise regulation as Brussels Capital Region, BRU will be closed from 22h00 till 06h00 and during weekends.

I'm sure BIAC is willing to pay for the noise isolation: if a roof now gets damaged by a plane in Buken, those people phone BIAC, and friendly men come and fix it asap.

Forget about all dispertion plans: arrivals and take offs should be decided on these parameters:
1. safety (including wind and visability)
2. other traffic
3. noise
4. convenience for pax

pascal-air · Post by **pascal-air** » 19 Oct 2005, 12:43

LX-LGX wrote:
Forget about all dispertion plans: arrivals and take offs should be decided on these parameters:
1. safety (including wind and visability)
2. other traffic
3. noise
4. convenience for pax

Woow at least one thing I am agree with you !

xeno · Post by **xeno** » 19 Oct 2005, 12:44

sn26567 wrote: Due to dominant winds from SW, the Noordrand would of course be at a disadvantage, but this is the least populated area around the airport. It should not be too difficult to pay them a good phonic insulation, as the walloon region is doing for Liège.

I've asked you already, but I will ask you again since I've never had an answer: what is your definition of the "Noordrand"? What about cities like Vilvoorde (+35.000 habitants!) or even Machelen? All to be isolated?
I think the misperception of the Noordrand as a big "pattattenveld" is still alive among many people.

If population would really be the primary condition to concentrate, I do believe other regions would come in first place. But since I'm opposed to concentration, of course this wouldn't be necessary for me...

Post by **sn26567** » 19 Oct 2005, 13:31

xeno wrote:what is your definition of the "Noordrand"? What about cities like Vilvoorde (+35.000 habitants!) or even Machelen? All to be isolated?

Only small parts of Vilvoorde or Machelen are in the Noordrand. I would rather say that the Noordrand includes parts of Neder-over-Heembeek, Meise, Grimbergen, Haren, Machelen and Vilvoorde (and by no means entire cities or villages)