15 October 2005: D-day BRU

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 04 Oct 2005, 20:04

This is the agenda for this week:

Wednesday 5 October: the federal government and the partial governments are together with the "Overlegcomité" to have a look at the dispersion plan and possible a whole new one.

Friday 7 October: Piqué and Leterme are going to try to get a solution for Brussels and Flanders.

The change is very big that on point a, they not have a solution on Wednesday.

Saturday 15 October: if there is no solution: 25.000 euro per aircraft above Brussels.

Piqué said that they have to get a solution at the end of next week. There is no way out.

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 04 Oct 2005, 20:15

first see then believe ...

Well, what always wonders me in these matters is why they always have to postpone things to the last minute? Why not start with it sooner? They know it long enough already. And now it will be a rush again like never seen before, resulting in something which is far from optimal, due to "lack of time".

744rules · Post by **744rules** » 04 Oct 2005, 20:50

Why not extend 25R 8O

The "noordrand" is the less affected area and when 25R is longer, this would allow a/c to be higher when overflying populated areas.

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 04 Oct 2005, 22:01

@Killerwhale65,

It's absolute not a lack of time and to "the last minute"

Behind the scenes a lot of people in different workgroups have worked months to get the results they are now to discuss next week. You can not have any discussion before you heard BIAC, BECA, and the local communities.

So, they have worked very hard. We will see what the solution will be.
I hope for the best.

Post by **sn26567** » 05 Oct 2005, 08:57

Atlantis wrote:the partial governments are together with the "Overlegcomité"

What do you mean by 'partial governments' and 'overlegcomité'?

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 07 Oct 2005, 15:24

The governments of Brussels and Flanders have their agreement about 2008 and after that time.

It's an agreement about the nightflights. The numbers of flights will be frozen at 18.000 instead of 25.000

Now they have to negotiate about the dispersion plan in the period for 2008

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 13 Oct 2005, 21:29

According to mister Landuyt, interview in 'Terzake' they don't have a global solution for the problems at Brussels till Saturday 15 October.

According to the journalist it's a wonder that the Brussels government, the Flemish and mister Landuyt had a talk at 17H this evening. The two plans, Brussels and Flanders, have a lot of differences. That's why mister Landuyt offer it's own proposal. The both governments take it away and discussed it. Tomorrow at 14H they are again together.

Like I said, they will not have a global solution. What Landuyt will, very soon, is a solution for the flights on Saturdays and the penalty's.
He will talk and take decissions step by step like the solution for the nightflights.

pascal-air · Post by **pascal-air** » 13 Oct 2005, 21:50

Atlantis wrote:Like I said, they will not have a global solution. What Landuyt will, very soon, is a solution for the flights on Saturdays and the penalty's.
He will talk and take decissions step by step like the solution for the nightflights.

He is lucky. Winds will be from est next we so i think 02 will be in use, and this is normal. However, if I were him, I will plan all landing on 25L and all departing on 07L

for next weeks

Anyway, I think that it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to find a solution with the current extremist flemish government. It is thinking only about voices it can get not about the belgium future. After that do not be afraid if VB will get the first position. This is the choice of the flemish government, a dangerous choice.

By the way, I think that Bierset is smiling a lot about getting the zaventem traffic. And they are right. Because of flemish government, Zaventem has no future...

AFApresident · Post by **AFApresident** » 13 Oct 2005, 22:54

pascal-air wrote:
Anyway, I think that it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to find a solution with the current extremist flemish government. It is thinking only about voices it can get not about the belgium future. After that do not be afraid if VB will get the first position. This is the choice of the flemish government, a dangerous choice.

By the way, I think that Bierset is smiling a lot about getting the zaventem traffic. And they are right. Because of flemish government, Zaventem has no future...

Get your facts straight Pascal, it´s not because of the Flemish Government we are now having all these problems @ BRU. Durant messed a lot up as well, but you seem to have forgotten her (maybe because she is not flemish)?

If BRU dies that will be a serious problem not only for Flanders but also for Brussels and thus for Belgium as a whole. But it seems as you and some of the french speaking politicians have not thought about that yet.

Next time think before you say something instead of calling us extremists!

pascal-air · Post by **pascal-air** » 13 Oct 2005, 23:41

AFApresident wrote: Durant messed a lot up as well, but you seem to have forgotten her (maybe because she is not flemish)?

No, I do not forget. The problem of Durant was that she proposed a concentration plan without insulation etc, and of course, it failed...
And this was certainly the opportunity of a such silly plan like Anciaux

AFApresident wrote: If BRU dies that will be a serious problem not only for Flanders but also for Brussels and thus for Belgium as a whole. But it seems as you and some of the french speaking politicians have not thought about that yet.

Next time think before you say something instead of calling us extremists!

I said that the flemish government is extremist and yes it is ! Are you part of it ? Because I never said that flemish are extremist. This is the difference ! And I maintain this opinion, despite you do not share it (it is your opinion).

And if EBBR dies, yes this will cause a problem but not because of the EBBR failure itself (it can be easily replaced by other airports), but because the belgium (in the form we know it know)will die too.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 14 Oct 2005, 00:07

pascal-air wrote:
Atlantis wrote:Like I said, they will not have a global solution. What Landuyt will, very soon, is a solution for the flights on Saturdays and the penalty's.
He will talk and take decissions step by step like the solution for the nightflights.
He is lucky. Winds will be from est next we so i think 02 will be in use, and this is normal. However, if I were him, I will plan all landing on 25L and all departing on 07L for next weeks

Anyway, I think that it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to find a solution with the current extremist flemish government. It is thinking only about voices it can get not about the belgium future. After that do not be afraid if VB will get the first position. This is the choice of the flemish government, a dangerous choice.

By the way, I think that Bierset is smiling a lot about getting the zaventem traffic. And they are right. Because of flemish government, Zaventem has no future...

Oh boy.

1. if the Flemish government is already extremist, how do we have to describe the V.B.?

2. it's not the Flemish government that has put BRU into this sh..: the Brussels Capital government has. They went to court, they oppose every solution that includes night fligts above Brussels, they oppose every solution that includes weekend flights above Brussels.

3. the P.S. objected more night flights for BRU, forcing DHL to leave, cutting jobs in both Brussels and Flanders. But the same PS accepted more night flights for TNT at Bierset, bringing jobs to Wallonia. My dear pascal-air, THAT is the reason why the V.B. will win from this story.

4. Agree on Bierset, disagree on the future for BRU.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 14 Oct 2005, 11:09

Regi, if I was in charge, I would react tot the stupid noise regulation from Brussels Capital Region like this:

1. allow all charters to land in BRU

2. send planes coming from Strassbourg and Luxembourg to Liège

3. send planes from other business destinations to Antwerp or Ostend

4. check the triple language knowledge from all taxi drivers at BRU (NL-FR-ENG) and refuse permit to only French speaking taxi drivers.

Let Picqué then explain to business men/women, coming to do business in Brussels, that Brussels doesn't want their planes flying over Brussels. Just imagine what would happen to the Brussels tourism industry.

Ridiculous, isn't it? That's what most people in the north also think about the actual situation.

xeno · Post by **xeno** » 14 Oct 2005, 13:26

pascal-air wrote: Anyway, I think that it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to find a solution with the current extremist flemish government. It is thinking only about voices it can get not about the belgium future. After that do not be afraid if VB will get the first position. This is the choice of the flemish government, a dangerous choice.

pascal-air, are you some kind of "typeke" or what?

Or are you a spokesman of the UBCNA/BUTV?

Aren't there always two parties involved? It seems to me that you feel sorry for this "poor Brussels Government, taken hostage by a extremist Flemish government". Are these political assumptions really necessary?

waldova · Post by **waldova** » 14 Oct 2005, 13:48

If we want a solution for BRU all the governments will have to put their disagreements in the closet. I think they seem to forget this problem is about Belgium and not only about Brussels, Flanders and Wallonia. This are jobs of people from all the regions. This is the pride of Belgium. What if we loose this because some people seem to disagree about the languages and want to prove they can block or decide something. Let's forget about all this crap and think about the future of belgium! We already lost a big part of our aviation. Let's not throw everything we have in the carbige can. I hope the politicians will once use their commun sence and do something about this problem, get a real solution, a solution where the airport has the right to continue to exist and to expand!

pascal-air · Post by **pascal-air** » 14 Oct 2005, 14:18

xeno wrote: Aren't there always two parties involved? It seems to me that you feel sorry for this "poor Brussels Government, taken hostage by a extremist Flemish government". Are these political assumptions really necessary?

I don't feel sorry and I do not think that BRU government is hostage of the flemish one

But I think that if we want to get a solution (durable one), we have to look wider than just looking for one aspect (noise or airport) at the time. So, sorry for guys that are only looking for the airport but for me the airport is as much important as the noise problem. If we want to get a strong solution in long term, the two aspects must be taken into account.

And yeah, I am not afraid to tell that sometimes in order to get a good solution, several hard decisions have to be taken.

I think that the debate could have been positive for the airport future, because if a good solution was found it would insure airport stability in its vision and development. However it would have a cost : some restrictions (night flight, types of plane etc), delocalisation of several flights, insulation, expropriation...

I told "could have been" because like you said, I think it will be polluted with language & community considerations.

At last, you know, BRU is just like other airport cities. Both are growing together, and causing conflicts. Look at Paris. First there was Bourget, then Orly and CDG... They limited the number of flight in Bourget, then Orly (no night flights)... and because it is constantly growing they would like to have a 3rd parisian airport (Bourget is no longer considered)... That is just life, and here this may happen with the time. May be in 10, 15 years. I don't know, but for sure it will happen.

Acid-drop · Post by **Acid-drop** » 14 Oct 2005, 16:17

And that's why some airports, coming out of nowhere, are becoming important. Many regional airports for low costs flights and also liege airport for cargo (already 9th european, and they are wishing to be 5th).

Belgium is just as big as a big international city anyway. 50 km for antwerp and charleroi, or 100 km for ostende and liege ... this is just nothing.

pascal-air · Post by **pascal-air** » 14 Oct 2005, 17:01

Acid-drop wrote:And that's why some airports, coming out of nowhere, are becoming important. Many regional airports for low costs flights and also liege airport for cargo (already 9th european, and they are wishing to be 5th).

Belgium is just as big as a big international city anyway. 50 km for antwerp and charleroi, or 100 km for ostende and liege ... this is just nothing.

Exactly, and if there is a very good and fast railway station moving you directly from the airport to the city center, it could be very competitive. Because 100, 50km or 10km does not make a big difference with a 300k/h train. And by car, it is almost impossible to go because of traffic jams (at least for paris, it is a pain to go to orly or CDG by car during working hours). But by RER or tgv it is nice.

Acid-drop · Post by **Acid-drop** » 14 Oct 2005, 21:06

Well, ... actually, the railway network in belgium is quite good.
And they are improving it. I know they are making a new connection between brussels airport and the line to leuven and liege (which is highspeed) ... this could connect liege airport and brussels aiport in like 40 min, both for humans and freight. Why not .... liege has already some plan to be connected to paris and cologne via a special freight version of the high speed train.

I think there is also a plan to make a train station in charleroi airport (which is not too close from any existing one).

We could connect any airport together and call it "Belgium airport"

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 14 Oct 2005, 21:10

Acid-drop wrote:Well, ... actually, the railway network in belgium is quite good.
And they are improving it. I know they are making a new connection between brussels airport and the line to leuven and liege (which is highspeed) ... this could connect liege airport and brussels aiport in like 40 min, both for humans and freight. Why not .... liege has already some plan to be connected to paris and cologne via a special freight version of the high speed train.

I think there is also a plan to make a train station in charleroi airport (which is not too close from any existing one).

We could connect any airport together and call it "Belgium airport"

I would say it's cheaper to centralize everything into one airport. Staring to cut everything into small parts and share them wit hall airports in Belgium will cost a lot of money and won't be a good solution.

Chris

pascal-air · Post by **pascal-air** » 15 Oct 2005, 00:10

Avro wrote: I would say it's cheaper to centralize everything into one airport. Staring to cut everything into small parts and share them wit hall airports in Belgium will cost a lot of money and won't be a good solution.

Chris

When I were young, (OK i am not so old) I thought like you. I am working into another domain (IT) and if you do not know it, IT is being into a deep migration, involving delocalisation (India, may be China....). Sometimes it succeeds, sometimes it fails with some dramas like suicides (one HP employee commit suicide last week, and directly linked with delocalisation)

All that to told you that the cheapest cost is not always concentration, and neither delocalisation! The equation is quite complex. Anyway, here this is not just an equation about costs, but the equation involves environment, citizens and politic and many other actors! The equation is a little bit more complex than just numbers. So the winner will be the man who will be able to solve it.

However, many people are trusting he got the truth... I do not have it, I am hoping that someone will find it...