TV846 - go around - MJV - runway 05

mark_in_motion · Post by **mark_in_motion** » 13 Sep 2005, 12:53

Hello,

About three weeks ago (23/08/2005), I flew from Brussels to Murcia San Javier with Virgin Express (TV 846, 18:10 / 20:35), a very comfortable flight, especially due to the extra leg room we booked. After flying over "Mar Menor" and after doing some unexpected and heavy turns, we were approaching runway 05.

Just when I said to my wife that I in my opinion we were still too high and going too fast for landing, and just when I saw the taxiway straight under us, suddenly the pilot increased engine power, pulled up and decided for a go around.

Some people started to scream, others were asking each other with scary voices what was happening, some others were just quiet. The purser, who was just sitting in front of us, covered his mouth with his hand to hide that he was laughing, although in his eyes I could see he was. In the beginning I was excited as well, because you are experiencing some unexpected procedures, but when I realized that everything was under control and that it was just a normal go around, I started enjoying observing the people and observing the movements of the plane. What was normal from my point of view (increase altitude level by level as indicated by the tower), but not normal according to the other passengers was the continuously increasing and decreasing of engine power: on, off, on, off, on, off….

Well, we did "Mar Menor" again, didn't do these strange curves like before and we had a straight forward final approach and landed without any problems on runway 05. When we were outside the plane I noticed a clear blue sky and not one knot of wind, no other traffic around neither. Later, at home, I checked on internet if MJV 05/23 is equipped with ILS, because a missed visual approach could then be an explanation for the go around. But... MJV 05/23 does have ILS.

So, my question to you experts (and maybe some Virgin-Express employees) is: how could this happen on an ILS equipped runway on a windless day with a clear blue sky and no other traffic around?

Kind regards,

Mark

Zorba · Post by **Zorba** » 13 Sep 2005, 15:49

Well it could be your plane was too high (explains the turns) and the captain wasn't sure he would make it on the runway, and therefor performed a go around.

But I'm not an expert, and neither know the facts, so it's just a guess ...

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 13 Sep 2005, 16:04

Doesn't ILS on automatic pilot not indicate the right altitude to be at?

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 13 Sep 2005, 16:21

yes it does, but remember pilots like to land visual. So if the weather was good, they most likely performed a visual landing. Its not because the field is equipped with ILS that pilots have to use it. ILS is rather a guidance system for when the weather is not too good.

Zorba · Post by **Zorba** » 13 Sep 2005, 17:03

Euhm let me clear something about approaches. You have 3 main kind of approaches :

- Visual Approach
- VOR/DME Approach
- ILS Approach.

Visual is only on sight, so you see the runway and you don't use instruments. VOR/DME is a bit more complicated, won't explain it for now.

Then you have ILS, which just indicates the localiser (too make sure you are in the middle of the runway) and glideslope (for descend). You can choose : or you make an ILS approach, but fly it manualy (so no Autopilot) or you can let the autopilot make the approach and land the airplane for you.

So you don't have to automaticly land when doing an ILS approach. And it seems not many people know that

And as Mark mentioned : the sky was clear and not much wind, so the perfect weather for a visual approach!

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 13 Sep 2005, 17:09

so, like i said ...

Zorba · Post by **Zorba** » 13 Sep 2005, 17:24

Matthias, the post wasn't meant for you

I just wanted it too be clear for VinWin

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 13 Sep 2005, 17:56

Airbus_fan wrote:Matthias, the post wasn't meant for you I just wanted it too be clear for VinWin

Thanks Airbus_fan and killerwhale! Both explanations were very useful!

But let's assume and considerthat the pilot screwed up his landing because he was flying visual: His fault cause he could have done it on ILS with or without auto-pilot switched on!!!

Would he get told off by the company with as a consequence a financial loss?

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 13 Sep 2005, 18:35

i don't think it is that simple.

A go-around can happen for a number of reasons. But i don't think that "screwed up" is one of them. Remember that Virgin Express is a Belgian company and thus will have only high qualified pilots. Also dont forget theres 2 pilots.

Besides, who says that the pilot is to blame? Since the weather was good i sincerely doubt this! Most go-arounds are issued by ATC. Like mentioned in other topics this could be because the previous aircraft didnt exit the runway fast enough or did not take-off fast enough. I know Mark said there was no traffic, but you can't notice all trafic when you taxi or come out the plane.

matsATC · Post by **matsATC** » 13 Sep 2005, 18:37

The pilot chooses the type of approach he wants to make. Most pilots like to make visual approaches in good weather conditions. Because it's more fun, maybe, but also because it saves a few minutes in flying time and thus saves fuel and money.

On the other hand, if the pilot chooses to make his circuit as short as possible, and misjudges his altitude and/or the current wind, he can 'overshoot' the runway (meaning he is too high to land) and has to make a missed approach.

In Brussels it happens regularly. In the last two years I've seen several missed approaches of this kind.

And another point: I don't have any statistics, but I think the number of pilot initiated go arounds vs. those initiated by ATC is pretty much the same.
Some of the more frequent reasons for go arounds initiated by the pilot are: too high on the approach, windshear, cabin not secured, too fast, or even 'pushing the wrong button' in the cockpit (and this has happened!)...

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 13 Sep 2005, 18:45

Well there you go....

Although U can be the most experienced pilot of the world U still can make mistakes such as the the ones matsatc was talking about...

So on operational point of view what if (in general) the pilot makes a mistake? does he get blamed in the kind of way I was talking about?

@killerwhale obviously i'm make things simple but sure there must be an internal procedure for these kinds of simple and unfortunate mistakes....

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 13 Sep 2005, 18:53

i still want to express once again that it does not have to be the pilots fault! A go-aroud can be issued by ATC also!

And no, as far as i know, there are no procedures for this (if it is a pilot misjudgement - wouldnt call it error and certainly not screw-up). And i wouldnt know why there should be any - its just part of the type of job they do.

mark_in_motion · Post by **mark_in_motion** » 13 Sep 2005, 19:19

wow! very useful explanations! thanx a lot!

MD-11 · Post by **MD-11** » 14 Sep 2005, 08:53

In the SLR 737 video I've got you see the pilots making a 360° on short final because on their altitude there was to much tailwind.
They made another approach on a lower altitude and that went fine.
Long time ago a CTB flight attendant told me that they made a go-around because one of the engines ( of the MD-11 ) gave a warning to the pilots on finals.
( perhaps a problem if they needed the reversers, I don't know ), anyway they made a go-around and at the second attempt everything was fine and they landed safely.
A while ago I saw two planes coming in at 25L at BRU, closer behind each other than normal. I told my wife that they were so close.
Just said that the 2nd plane made a go-around and came back a few minutes later.
I always hope of making a go-around.
At that time you really feel the power of the engines!

When I flew on the SABENA 747-300 "farewell to Belgium" flight we made a low-pass over Liège airport and than accellerated back to our altitude, simply wonderful that feeling and sound of those engines.

A318 · Post by **A318** » 15 Sep 2005, 21:54

Maybe it was the FO that was flying the aproach or maybe they were busy with line training due to an FO in upgrade. You never know, only thing you know is they made a goaround, no drama's

Greetz,

Erwin

Sabena_690 · Post by **Sabena_690** » 16 Sep 2005, 09:55

@mark-in-motion: didn't the Captain or the Purser make an announcement to explain what happened?

Bad points for communication in case they didn't...

Regards
Frederic

Rayman · Post by **Rayman** » 16 Sep 2005, 12:43

killerwhale65 wrote:............... Remember that Virgin Express is a Belgian company and thus will have only high qualified pilots. Also dont forget theres 2 pilots.............

Chauvi-Chauvi

fftopic:
TWR: SNxxx clear to land rwy 23, wind 190 at 9
FO: cleared to land rwy 32, SNxxx
…..
Computer: Two..hundred…..one..hundred….eighty…..fifty…..
…..
Heavy reverse and extra heavy break on touch down. So heavy that both CPT and FO were sticking with their face on the window.
Machine stopt with the nose gear on grass.

CPT: Never seen such a short Rwy.
FO: Never seen such a wide one.

Back in topic

Check this

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 16 Sep 2005, 16:13

Airbus_fan wrote:Euhm let me clear something about approaches. You have 3 main kind of approaches :

- Visual Approach
- VOR/DME Approach
- ILS Approach.

Let us be more precise about approaches

Landings under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) are permitted when the ceiling exceeds 1000ft and the horizontal visibility exceeds 3 mi.

When this is not the case you need to approach under instrument Flight Rules (IFR). An IFR approach procedure is either nonprecision (lateral guidance only) or precision (both lateral and vertical guidance signals).

For info CAT I, II, III ops are precision approach procedures.

An instrument approach procedure describes the route the aircraft should follow and the altitude to be flown. The route and altitudes are referenced to the nav aids supporting the procedures, which may include VOR, VOR/DME, TACAN, VORTAC, NDB, Locan-C, IRUs, ILS, MLS, GNSS, precision approach radar, and airport surveillancve radar.

The autoland procedures is still something diferent.

I hope it's clear now

Chris