Noise restrictions: what about other European airports

[Atlantis]

The next coming two months will be crucial for the airport of Zaventem. Will there be an agreement or not? If not and Brussels stays at their point and forbid to fly over Brussels then Zaventem has a very big problem.

These days we can read in the newspapers that a couple of politicians are starting with the offensive. Decrease of the nightflights after 2008, stop building houses near the runways, etc etc.

But what about other airports? I know that LHR has already for years strong noise restrictions from 23.29H till 06.00 or 07.00H I think. It's very unusual that a aircraft has permission to land or take off in that time. Only when it is humanity.

But what about CDG, AMS, FRA, etc? I knew nothing about those airports.

The only thing I read this week was about AMS. They admit that it was wrong to isolate all the houses. But it was political not done to say: " we have to brake down all the houses". Now the have the same problems and, more important, they admitted as well that all the runways they have are not of this time. More people claims the noise because there are more runways. What they are now saying is that the best solution is to use a few runways and concentrate the flights.

[B744skipper]

What they are now saying is that the best solution is to use a few runways and concentrate the flights.

The best solution would be to move most of the people away from the area that is "noise polluted" and only use those areas for business and leisure purposes, and not that people live there.
This is exactly what Schiphol has reported to the neighbouring towns, but back then (in the 60's) they ignored that and build the houses. And now Schiphol has to take the consequences, but in my opinion it was the fault of the town councils, so let them bleed.

[Comet]

At London City flights stop at night until the following morning, there are no flights through the night. Also the airport is closed from lunchtime Saturday to lunchtime Sunday.

[n5528p]

This is exactly what Schiphol has reported to the neighbouring towns, but back then (in the 60's) they ignored that and build the houses. And now Schiphol has to take the consequences, but in my opinion it was the fault of the town councils, so let them bleed.

Not only in AMS, the same in VIE.

There are several approaches available, but from my point of view none would really work. You can share the noise by spreading the runways and departure routes among more people, like it was done in VIE recently, but then you have people complaining that there was no noise when they built their houses in 2001 (QUOTED!).

You could also concentrate the traffic on fewer RWYs, if traffic load and wind conditions permit - on the other hand: Which airport spends millions in order to build a RWY they do not need because they can handle the traffic on the existing RWYs? They are quite expensive...

@ B733Skipper

I totally agree with you on the city councils - her in Austria (and I believe in most of the European countries) land is classified by the city council. It's either farming, residential (subdivided in several classes for height restrictions), industrial, commercial, and so on....

If you want to build your home on farm land, the city council has to approve that. And the continually do so, especially in smaller villages where the mayor has lots of friends - the same mechanism allows people to build homes as close as 5 metres to a major railway or in zones classified as "avalanche area" or "flooding area".

The best example is people protesting against the "Emperor Franz Joseph Railway" north of Vienna - named after said emperor who died in 1916, the railway itself is over hundred years old.

So I would not only extend the "bleeding" to the city councils, but also to many residents in the area, BECAUSE THEY DID KNOW ABOUT THE AIRPORT. VIE is an old fighter base from WW2, like many other airfields in Austria. Furthermore, I do not remember many European Airports which are much younger than 40 or 50 years. I admit they grew, but this is the also the case for motorways or railways - infrastructure which is heavily used by the protestors.

Bottom line: If I move somewhere and I know there is an airport / airbase / industry / railway / etc. etc. somewhere close, I have to accept that this installation may grew, especially if it did so for decades before.

Unfortunately, it's not about logic - it's about politics

Regards, Bernhard

[B744skipper]

So I would not only extend the "bleeding" to the city councils, but also to many residents in the area, BECAUSE THEY DID KNOW ABOUT THE AIRPORT. VIE is an old fighter base from WW2, like many other airfields in Austria. Furthermore, I do not remember many European Airports which are much younger than 40 or 50 years.

Bottom line: If I move somewhere and I know there is an airport / airbase / industry / railway / etc. etc. somewhere close, I have to accept that this installation may grew, especially if it did so for decades before.

I agree with that, it comes down to two thing:
- Politics don't always think in the long-term, so they have allowed residential building in places that are problematic now.
- As you pointed out, people should know about the consequences when moving near an airport, but because it's cheap overthere people seem to loose their common sense (and brains). So it's fair to say that people have self-inflicted the problem, things got really loud since the jet-age in the sixties and people could know about the noise (especially people who have moved in the last 20 years could be aware of the problem).*

*The traffic may have increased since then, but lot's of things are off-set by quieter engines and increasing climb rates.

And do not forget, especially in aviation NIMBY seems to show itself very often.

The problems we describe can be found around every major airport in Europe (the airport was there, people moved there and then complain).

[afterburner]

How can we trust belgian politicians ? There are more peaples claiming about noice then claiming to keep they job. A politician only think to be reelectek !!!

[Atlantis]

The question was: what about other airports around us.

Are they closed at night? Are they allowing aircrafts during night?

[SAB-OM]

Brussels is a bit unique with DHL as a big cargo hub...

at AMS there are almost no night flights
their schedule for heavy traffic is mainly focused on Asia (deps/arr during the daytime)
They also change runways frequently during the day - and they have 3 main runways (18L 18C 18R) arrival routes over the less populated northern part of the Netherlands

London Heathrow - no idea on the amount of flights during the night
If I remember well, they change runways every 4 hours I believe (or is it 8 hours)

I wonder about the situation at places like Keulen (Köln EDDK) Frankfurt (EDDF) where there are also a lot of cargo movements

[Charlie_Fox]

Frankfurt is closed at night to civilian aircraft but the U S military may land and take off.
Heathrow is completely closed at night.

[Atlantis]

And in meantime US Military at Frankfurt will moved out. So, this traffic will also be gone.

Closed

LHR
AMS
FRA

CDG?

So, this means that smaller airports like EBOS, EBLG are open 24/24 and this for charter as cargo activities.

When our neighbor airports are closed at night, and for the moment BRU is an exception, they have to negotiate to reduce the nightflights at BRU.
It means that BRU will not lose some airlines to other airports around us if they want to "reduced" or "closed" the airport at night. That's in my opinion important.

If they want good solutions for the airport, and be sure that the airport will exist after October, they have to take such decisions.
If it's possible the number of charters at night reduce and put them at daytime.

[regi]

Brussels could become a Zeppelin harbour.

[n5528p]

The question was: what about other airports around us.
Are they closed at night? Are they allowing aircrafts during night?

VIE / LOWW has reached an agreement with most neighboring villages and organizations: A maximum number of landings is allowed during a certain period in the night time, I hope I can find the numbers on the web.

Regards, Bernhard

[n5528p]

How can we trust belgian politicians ? There

No question of nationality, believe me....

Bernhard

[HorsePower]

CDG: open 24/24 Aprox. 600 000 movements annually.
ORY: closed between 23h30 till 06h00; 250 000 movements max. annually.

Regards

Seb.