Plane crashes north east of Athens

TC-MNE · Post by **TC-MNE** » 15 Aug 2005, 00:09

hi,
you all talk about 'airco' and 'cool gases'... but I don't understand why a plane needs airco, when it's freezing high in the air....???
shouldn't they turn on the heater then?

TCAS_climb · Post by **TCAS_climb** » 15 Aug 2005, 00:36

TC,

the air used in the cabin for aircon/pressurization is pumped from the engines' compressor stage. That means it's hot -several hundred degrees- and needs to be cooled down before vented into the pax cabin.

"the aircraft had been overhauled "last week"

Standard crap-talk in case of accident. May be true, may be a big fat lie. It's part of the media breifing air carriers have to say when a plane hits the planet.

Never noticed the accident airplane "had just been overhauled", and that the captain of te flight was always "one of the most senior captains of the company"?

Doesn't matter if it's a lie or not, the show must go on and the company cannot afford to lose face when hundreds of TV station are banging on the doors and calling all the time. Cynical world.

waldova · Post by **waldova** » 15 Aug 2005, 00:39

Just being reported on the news that the corpses found of the passengers where indeed frozen. This meaning that the passengers froze in the cabin during the flight and where already all dead before impact. This could explain also why the pilots where dead too.

Also this could be a problem of the airco and pressurization system. This system determines the temperature inside the plane. Also when i read all the other statements that there has been many other problems already with this plane with this system it is no doubt related to this.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 15 Aug 2005, 04:23

L-1011 wrote:Could it be that if both pilots are unconcious, no passenger or crew can enter the cockpit to try something because of the new "closed-door" regulations scince 9/11 ?

It's still possible to go into the cockpit, even if the pilots are dead. For obvious security reasons, I won't spread on this public forum how it works

.

Avro wrote:Very good question indeed !! But if there is a problem with the Airco system on the plane I would think that both cabin and flightdeck will get the same effects of this.

Agree on that!

Avro wrote:AFAIK there is no separate system for the flightdeck.

Yes and no. In fact, ther is a slight difference: the air cabin is 50% constitued with recycled air (from cabin) whereas flightdeck air comes 100% from air conditioning system.

Avro wrote:That's impossible. The oxygen masks and the oxygen which the pilot get trough their mask are different systems.

And AFAIK the O2 reserve lasts longer for the pilots than for the pax.

Agree on that! Aprox 20 mn for each pax and 1 hour for each pilot.

SN30952 wrote:That same report says toxic gasses (cooling gasses) had escaped for the airco system.

As far as I know, there is no cooling gasses in air conditioning system as in your car. It works differently!

SN30952 wrote:On the other hand if the airco does not work well, the temperature is not controlled in the aircraft, explaining why it was flying low altitude (under the radar)?

Was it?

Avro wrote:As you say PLuto777 it's unbelievable how safety comes behind economics nowadays.

I've noticed that also

.

May all of those who were on this flight rest in peace.

Regards

Seb.

Comet · Post by **Comet** » 15 Aug 2005, 09:56

Today's news said that the aircraft concerned had a history of air conditioning problems. It had only just returned to service after being grounded with this fault.

And I saw that aircraft in MAN on 8th March, I remember being pleased to photograph it because it was my first Helios.

Comet · Post by **Comet** » 15 Aug 2005, 10:01

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 15 Aug 2005, 11:04

TC-MNE wrote:hi,
you all talk about 'airco' and 'cool gases'... but I don't understand why a plane needs airco, when it's freezing high in the air....???
shouldn't they turn on the heater then?

HorsePower already gave you some explanations.

This is how the air conditioning works on a B737-300:

APU or engine 5th and if necessary 9th stage bleed air (which is very hot approx 200°C for stage # 5 I think) is pre-cooled by fan air. Then the bleed air is cooled again by ram air through heat exchangers. You also have a water collector which collects condensed water to avoid icing.

This is basically how it works

Chris

Bilboone · Post by **Bilboone** » 15 Aug 2005, 11:50

You can check-out more about the pressurization- and aircondition system

on this site : http://www.b737.org.uk/aircraftsystems.htm

the aircondition system is build around two (almost)identical independent working systems, if one system fails it can still work with one system ( delivers heat and air enough for the whole aircraft also for pressurization you have two controllers , one working and one in standby if one fails you can switch the second on( sometimes also called standby system), and there is also indication about the differential pressure. This is the difference in pressure between the air inside and outside the aircraft .

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 15 Aug 2005, 12:26

HorsePower wrote:
SN30952 wrote:On the other hand if the airco does not work well, the temperature is not controlled in the aircraft, explaining why it was flying low altitude (under the radar)?
Was it? Seb.

It disappeared from the radar? and it crashed into a mountain? What is the highest mountain in the area?
Cyprus Mail carried a Helios Airways History in which is said: The airline was sold in November 2004 to Libra Holiday Group for £5 million.
Libra Holidays Ltd is a member of the Libra Holidays Group of companies.
At Libra Holidays, the main goal is to offer a value for money product combined with an efficient customer service. The website are priceright.net or libraholidays.net
Libra Holidays Ltd a company registered in England under the registration number 1073441.

Reservations Tel: 0871 226 0446
Email: info@libraholidays.net
Opening hours: Monday-Friday 8am-10pm and Saturday & Sunday 9am-7pm
Administration & Ticketing Tel: 0870 241 5184 Email: admin@libraholidays.net
Accounts Tel: 0870 066 4827 Email: account@libraholidays.net
Customer Services Tel: 0870 241 5190 Fax: 0870 066 4828
Address
Castle House, 21 Station Road, New Barnet, Herts, EN5 1PA

The search for 'flight only' on the website seemed not longer to be operational. (When I checked , anyway)

Here is what customers wrote about their services

Post by **luchtzak** » 15 Aug 2005, 19:01

Family has arrived in Athens, 21 children (iso 48 reported earlier) - reason of the incident still unknown, many passengers where frozen, can be caused by airconditioning or air-supply. However some doubts still exist about the real cause.

Meanwhile cockpit and cabin crew of Helios Airlines together with passengers didn't want/refused to fly this morning. Part of the crew has psychological problems.

From vrtnieuws.net

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 15 Aug 2005, 19:52

FDR and CVR have been found. CVR in bad shape.

Regards

Seb.

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » 15 Aug 2005, 19:52

Ik verneem hier net via de televisie dat de SMS die is gestuurd ("Vaarwel, we bevriezen") een wansmakelijke grap zou zijn. De Grieks-Cyprioot die het bericht heeft verstuurd, is ondertussen al gearresteerd en voorgeleid. Zijn mislukte grap kwam snel aan het licht toen de passagierslijst werd vrijgegeven en zijn neef (die de SMS had ontvangen) zag dat de naam van zijn familielid er niet bij stond.
Uiteraard blijven er nog heel veel vragen hangen omtrent dit ongeluk.

http://standaard.typepad.com/en_nu_even ... nsmak.html

That sms was a joke from someone, he has been arrested.

A318 · Post by **A318** » 15 Aug 2005, 22:14

Sorry people, I already wrote it down in the dutch part of the forum that the speculation is going faster then speed. Let the autohorities do their job first before we already make conclusions. It's a sad sunday again, one we don't like to see in aviation at all. Let the rule SAFETY FIRST be our #1 rule and live by it. This makes the the difference between reliable and unsafe, remember that!
My thoughts are with the victims and their families.

Erwin

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 15 Aug 2005, 22:17

I agree with you Erwin that safety should be above all but unfortunately this isn't the case anymore today in many airlines. I'm sure of that....

Chris

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 15 Aug 2005, 22:43

blackhawk wrote:That sms was a joke from someone, he has been arrested.

As read in Bruno Tersago weblog.
Sotiris Voutas, the cousin of one of the passengers on the plane, told Alpha (Greek TV Station) that he received a text message from his cousin on his mobile phone minutes before the crash.
"He told me the pilots were unconscious ... he said, `Farewell, cousin, here we're frozen'."
Very strange story, that one....

waldova · Post by **waldova** » 15 Aug 2005, 22:54

Avro wrote:I agree with you Erwin that safety should be above all but unfortunately this isn't the case anymore today in many airlines. I'm sure of that....

Chris

Sorry but with this i have to disagree. I think we are safer now than many years ago. Since the crash with the Valujet and other airlines that were lacking in their maintenance to safe money maintenance has been monitered more closely by the authorities. In my opinion aviation is safer these days then before. For many airlines the risk of losing a plane and a lot of money because of a crash doesn't add up to save money on the maintenance.

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 15 Aug 2005, 23:05

SOME PASSENGERS WERE ALIVE
Capitals used in original message. (Sorry)

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » 16 Aug 2005, 00:21

At least six of the 121 people aboard a Cypriot plane were alive when the aircraft crashed while on autopilot, a coroner said Monday, as authorities raided the airline's offices and struggled to explain the actions of the pilot and crew.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... lane_crash

Comet · Post by **Comet** » 16 Aug 2005, 11:39

According to the newspaper today, one of the cabin crew was a qualified pilot who was working as a flight attendant whilst he looked for a pilot job. He was the one who tried to fly the aircraft to safety after the pilots collapsed. It said the aircraft just ran out of fuel and that is why it flew so long before crashing. It had been on autopilot before the fuel ran out. What a pity the fuel ran down, otherwise the steward might have been able to get the aircraft to safety and land in Athens.

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 16 Aug 2005, 11:47

Possible again a fault in fueling? Like the Tunisair flight earlier this month

Aviation24.be

Plane crashes north east of Athens

sold in November 2004

The gen @ Aug 15.

Gen 2