4th french firefighting plane crash in a row...

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 01 Aug 2005, 17:24

A french "Sécurité Civile" canadair CL-415 crashed today. The two pilots are dead. 2 weeks ago, we have already lost a Tracker. Fortunately enough, the pilot was safe.

more in french here.

Shame on those criminals peoples who put fire intentionnaly

.

RIP

Seb.

realplaneshaveprops · Post by **realplaneshaveprops** » 02 Aug 2005, 09:36

Is there already something known about the cause of the crash?
This is the second CL-415 crash of the French civil defence.

This is the current status of the firebombers

Aircraft Type Del'd Now Role Origin
Sud Aviation Alouette III 34 19 Utility local
Eurocopter AS.355F-2 2 2 Utility local
Eurocopter EC.145 32* 32* Customs local
Canadair CL-415 12 10 Fire Bombing Canada
Conair Turbo Firecat 15 12 Fire Bombing Canada
Conair Firecat 1 1 Fire Bombing Canada
Fokker F-27 2 2 Fire Bombing Netherlands
Beech King Air 200 4 3 Utility USA
MS.893E Rallye 235E 1 1 Utility local

The Securite Civile is divided into the Groupement des Helicopteres de la Securite Civile and the Groupement des Avions Bombardiers d'Eau.
Main bases are:
Ajaccio d'Annecy/Meythet Bastia
Bordeaux/Merignac Chamonix Clermont Ferrand/Aulnat
Granville/Donville-les-Bains Grenoble/ Versoud Le Havre
Lille/Lesquin Lorient/Lann-Bihoue Lyon/Bron
Marignane Montpellier/Frejorgues Nice
Paris - Issy les Moulineaux Pau/Uzein Perpignan/Llabanere
Quimper La Rochelle/Laleu Strasbourg/Entzheim

Source:

RIP

Koen

Advisor · Post by **Advisor** » 02 Aug 2005, 10:39

Shame on those criminals peoples who put fire intentionnaly

Is this a terrorist act or out of some revenge seeking tactic by an internal agency

earthman · Post by **earthman** » 02 Aug 2005, 10:51

They are just people who think putting forests on fire is fun. They should be prosecuted as terrorists though, send them to Guantanamo Bay or some place like that.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 02 Aug 2005, 20:41

realplaneshaveprops wrote:Is there already something known about the cause of the crash?

Currently, there is 2 possibilities:

- the rear fuselage broke in two parts in air, complete lost of the tail as the consequence.

-more probably (my own opinion), the aircraft touched one of the several hills in the vicinity of the crash. This is what happen to the Tracker 2 weeks ago...

The remaining 10 CL-415s are grounded, wainting for investigation.

Also last year, we lost a sikorsky skycrane under contract with the Securité Civile.Also a C-130 under contract with them crashed some years ago.

Regards

Seb.

FlyA310 · Post by **FlyA310** » 05 Aug 2005, 14:56

Dont forget that these aircraft (and pilots) are under severe stress during fire fighting ops and that they mostly operate in gusty winds (tramontane and mistral) at very low altitudes.

The Capt was 55 and the co-pilot was 50 years old and both had a lot of experience on the aircraft concerned.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 08 Aug 2005, 11:06

HorsePower wrote:Currently, there is 2 possibilities:

- the rear fuselage broke in two parts in air, complete lost of the tail as the consequence.

- more probably (my own opinion), the aircraft touched one of the several hills in the vicinity of the crash. This is what happen to the Tracker 2 weeks ago...

It appears finally that the first hypothesis is the good one. The pilots didn't make any mistake. Many witnesses saw the aircraft broke in two part in mid-air.

Seb.

realplaneshaveprops · Post by **realplaneshaveprops** » 08 Aug 2005, 11:22

FlyA310 wrote:Dont forget that these aircraft (and pilots) are under severe stress during fire fighting ops and that they mostly operate in gusty winds (tramontane and mistral) at very low altitudes.

Horsepower wrote:It appears finally that the first hypothesis is the good one. The pilots didn't make any mistake. Many witnesses saw the aircraft broke in two part in mid-air.

Even if they are under severe stress, they are designed and build to be very strong. Further investigation must tell us if its metal fatigue or just overstress. Only if we know that information, structural modifications and/or inspections can be worked out!

Koen

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 08 Aug 2005, 11:33

The problem is our 10 remaining CL-415 are still grounded. And those who put the fire know that perfectly... Fortunately, our first Dash-8-Q400 entered service now, but this is not enough...

Seb.

regi · Post by **regi** » 08 Aug 2005, 13:31

a second foreign customer for the Ilyushins

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 08 Aug 2005, 23:06

I personally think they are going to pay attention to the Be-200. Perhaps do you have more info, regi?

Regards

Seb.

realplaneshaveprops · Post by **realplaneshaveprops** » 09 Aug 2005, 00:03

The Be-200 would be a serious increase in capacity.

length x width x height x MTOW x Water
Be-200 32.05m x 32.78m x 8.90m x 37200kg x 12000kg
CL-415 19.82m x 28.63m x 8.98m x 19890kg x 6123 kg

Maybe there is need on extra capacity?

Koen

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 09 Aug 2005, 00:38

At first, they were looking at the Be-200 to replace the 2 F.27-500s, but they finally choose the Dash-8-Q400.

What I meant earlier is the Be-200 is a really good plane and perhaps one day they will order some, but I don't think they want to replace the rather new CL-415s. To my knowledge, the Il-76 is really big and France doesn't need such a plane. We don't need a 12.000 L capacity bomber for every fire. First, we have the Tracker to fight small fires, then you have the medium sized CL-415 and finally the 2* Dash-8-Q400.

Don't forget also it can depends of what are our neighbours (Portugal, Italia, Greece to name a few...) looking for. Perhaps one day we will see an european fire squadron?!

The Be-200 is really impressive I must say!

Regards

Seb.

*Currently, we have only one in service.

regi · Post by **regi** » 09 Aug 2005, 11:49

the advantage of the Il-76 is that within half a day, you can fly it from southern France to California.
all it needs is a worldwide active company to work as a subcontractor to extinguish the fires.
Now some money...

realplaneshaveprops · Post by **realplaneshaveprops** » 09 Aug 2005, 22:39

Here are some nice pictures of:

Dash8 Q400MR

Beriev Be-200

CL-415

Koen

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 10 Aug 2005, 11:18

Thanks Koen! Some more pictures:

De Havilland Canada CS2F/Conair Turbo Firecat (Tracker)
Grumman US-2B/Conair Firecat (Tracker)

L'épave du Canadair transportée dans un hangar
Translation:
The wrecked hull has been transported into an army hanger for further investigations. Investigators are 99% sure that the aircraft didn't hit rocks before crashing. Also is mentioned an other crash, which has occured in 1997 (not linked with this accident).

See also:
Le CL 415, un modèle contesté (interresting)
Des pompiers plus nombreux

Also, I just heard on the radio that the CL-415s may fly again by the end of the week. We need them so much!

Regards

Seb.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 11 Aug 2005, 00:11

CL-415 losses (Thanks Allessandro)

The 10 remaining Canadair are going to fly again tomorrow to help fighting against the fires. Also a :censored: man, suspected of putting many fires has been arrested. He will probably have only 1 or 2 years of jail at best

, assuming him to be convinced...

Regards

Seb.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 11 Aug 2005, 23:53

A french fireman has been arrested today. It appears he is the arsoner of 7 fires.

Seb.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 15 Aug 2005, 00:21

A small bi-plan water bomber crashed in the south of France today, killing the pilot. The airplane appears to be a Morane, under contract with french firemen.

More in french here.

RIP

Seb.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 19 Aug 2005, 23:43

HorsePower wrote:A small bi-plan water bomber crashed in the south of France today, killing the pilot. The airplane appears to be a Morane, under contract with french firemen.

Following the crash of one of theirs airplane, Midair's fleet is now grounded pending of investigation about the cause of the crash. It has been said thru the press it was a Morane but in fact it was a Rockwell S2R Thrush Commander wich radio code is "Morane", not to mix with Morane-Saulnier... (I know, journalists

) The pilot was a dutch citizen, he died due to heart disease and head trauma.

realplaneshaveprops wrote:The Be-200 would be a serious increase in capacity.

length x width x height x MTOW x Water
Be-200 32.05m x 32.78m x 8.90m x 37200kg x 12000kg
CL-415 19.82m x 28.63m x 8.98m x 19890kg x 6123 kg

Maybe there is need on extra capacity?

Koen

I just found (again) this old article from A&C (13JAN05):

La décision, début 2004, de la sécurité civile française de se doter de biturbopropulseurs Dash 8Q402 RR bombardiers d'eau n'a pas évincé l'amphibie Beriev Be-200 RR, pour la relève, à moyen terme, des Canadair CL-415. D'autant que l'appareil russe a fait grosse impression, cet été, en Italie, où il a été engagé sur plusieurs feux. D'autant aussi que ses promoteurs, Ikurt, Eads et Rolls-Royce, sont en droit de nourrir quelques ambitions en Amérique du Nord. Alors que les CL-415 de Marignane souffrent toujours d'un phénomène d'enfoncement des fonds de coque, que le constructeur canadien peine, semble-t-il, à résoudre.

Translation:
Even if the Sécurité Civile choosen, spring 2004, the Dash 8Q402 RR water bomber in favor of the Be-200 RR. It still possible that the later replace the CL-415 at medium term. The Be-200 was really impressive during firefighting missions over Italy. His promotors, Irkut, EADS and Rolls-Royce have also ambitions for North America. Whereas the CL-415 still got some metal fatigue problem on the hull, and that Canadair doesn't seem to be able to solve it.

Regards

Seb.