SN to code-share with LY on TLV route

JM · Post by JM » 02 Aug 2005, 15:51

Hello all,

SNBA will start code-shared service to Tel Aviv. I'm not entirely sure, but the starting date would be set at the beginning of October this year.

Personally I'm wondering how SNBA pax are going to react to the amount of security LY applies during C/I,boarding,... Double feelings I've got about this, I don't know how it used to be in Sabena times. Did they code-share with LY too? I know they flew there in a SLR 767...

Greetings to all,
Jm

sab319 · Post by **sab319** » 02 Aug 2005, 16:03

I believe Sabena code-shared with LY too...

I do hope this doesn't mean that SNBA will stop own ops on that route...

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 02 Aug 2005, 16:32

Yes, Sabena used to have a code share deal with El Al too and it is known SN Brussels Ailines has been willing to code share with them again ever since they've restarted their TLV operations.

Back in the Sabena days, both carriers flew a daily rotation (SN sometimes even with a Sobelair 767) and despite the fact that nowadays SN does no longer have so many US transfer pax as they used to have, they have managed to fill their 6 weekly A319s flights to very good load factors: +80% on average, which is one of the highest on their European network!

Of course it is possible that SN will reduce the number of frequencies or stop flying to TLV on their own metal all together and let El Al fly the route with bigger equipment (767 iso 757/737NG) and use their A319 on other routes; after all, a similar move is under study for Casablanca. The much talked about idea of a daily (or even 2 daily during peak season) BRU-DKR on A319 to counter the competition from AF would then most likely become a reality.

Anyway, good to see SN and LY back together again. It worked perfect in the past, so I am sure it will work out fine too this time. Does anybody know the schedule of the El Al flight? Does it allow for connections on the SN (AA operated with codeshare) flight to JFK? If so, then there you have one of the reasons why SN has been so keen to work together with El Al, since the SN flight to TLV is sadly not convenient for connecting pax from the States to Tel Aviv.

Post by **airbuske** » 02 Aug 2005, 17:10

Nice that code share agreement.
It is already possible to book an LY flight via the SN website www.flysn.be.

Woudn't it be a stupid move to stop the BRU - TLV with such a good LF ?
I know that the share on the BRU-DKR is also important but maybe it is time to add a plane to the fleet, an A319/320 ? But that's

fftopic:

If I'm correct it is not possible to fly BRU- DKR without fuel stop , no ?

sab319 · Post by **sab319** » 02 Aug 2005, 17:20

An A319 kan fly 6800km non-stop http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamili ... mance.html

and Brussels - Dakar is only 4470km, so perfectly flyable with a 319...

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=BRU- ... MAP-STYLE=
http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=%0D% ... MAP-STYLE=

Post by **airbuske** » 02 Aug 2005, 17:24

Thx sab319.

But I said that because a time ago there was a problem with the A330
and the A319 did the flight BRU-DKR with (fuel) stop in Alicante.

C_J · Post by **C_J** » 02 Aug 2005, 17:49

This code-share seems quite logical to me, I was exspecting it.

beaucaire · Post by **beaucaire** » 02 Aug 2005, 18:14

It would be more logic to start introducing more flights on SN aircraft.....
Codehare are fine but only give limitted access to yield and market-penetration. From a marketing point of view it even could be counter-productive,deluting it's own identity...

JM · Post by JM » 02 Aug 2005, 18:14

airbuske wrote:Thx sab319.

But I said that because a time ago there was a problem with the A330
and the A319 did the flight BRU-DKR with (fuel) stop in Alicante.

indead... A319 has allready done a few trips to DKR. Continuing on your LF statement : don't forget DLA-FIH flights ! More and more pax coming from CDG to connect here in BRU for those flights (including DKR). They keep saying it themselves : 'SN's service is much better then AF's'(e.g.). Sn's doing good (exept fot the technicals on A330s ...!

beaucaire wrote:It would be more logic to start introducing more flights on SN aircraft.....
Codehare are fine but only give limitted access to yield and market-penetration. From a marketing point of view it even could be counter-productive,deluting it's own identity...

True, but seen the financial resources do they have options (at the moment anyway) ? A good example of your statement are the codeshares with BA .I hear many complaining, although BA seems to remain the 'best airline' in several surveys.

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 02 Aug 2005, 18:59

It's nice to see them codeshare with LY but I fear that they will pull out their A319 from those ops and let LY operate 100% of the flights

As for the A319 operating to Dakar. It's possible without a fuel stop if their aren't too much headwinds I think. That's also the reason why Sn's A319 made a fuel stop once when they went to DKR.
And BTW I don't think they'll be able to compete against AF with an additionally A319 rotation to DKR. The service offered on board the A319 is not good enough to be able to compete against a wide body plane !!

Chris

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 02 Aug 2005, 19:50

Nice indeed that SN and LY are going to work close with each other but also a fear that in the near future the route of SN will be take over by LY.

Also the route to Casablanca

fftopic: , the financial center of Morocco, is on fire. But it is for a long time. Nothing new.

So, when it's all true - these are speculations - SN get two A319 free in it's fleet. Where can they use it? Some routes to Africa?

With the current competition of Air France/KLM and Kenya Airways it's a dead end. This plane is too small to fly against a B767 or B777.

I think this will illustrate that SN had no aircraft to fly outside Europe, except the current 3 A330's. This is painful.

liebensd · Post by **liebensd** » 02 Aug 2005, 20:28

Atlantis wrote:With the current competition of Air France/KLM and Kenya Airways it's a dead end. This plane is too small to fly against a B767 or B777.

Atlantis,

I disagree with your statement, why can an A319 not compete with the wide bodies, on some African routes?
Here is a map of the perfomance of the A319 from Airbus
The A319 has a lower operating cost than a wide body. Less crew, empty weight ex.. So when you don't have that mutch passengers, like SNBA compared to AF/KLM, you can't offer that flight like you are telling in your statement. Why, If you can make money with a small aircraft and not with a wide-body you should do it with a small one.

Greetz,

Dave

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 02 Aug 2005, 21:18

I don't have wrote that the range for the A319 is too short. What I mean is when they are thinking to use the A319 to 1 or more African destinations the whole ops to African has to change. You have to use the A319 everyday to a destination. For the current timetable no destination is served daily and you have to cope with the African weather. Strong headwinds makes that you need a technical stop.

For this moment they can use the A319 as back up when there is a technical delay at one of the A330.
For an effective use to African destinations they have to change the plans seriously.

At my opinion they have to use heavy metal to Africa so they can serve two destinations in one route.

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 02 Aug 2005, 21:24

I forgot something:

About making money: the routes to Africa were always the golden mine for Sabena and now SNBA. So that's not the problem. The reason why they have some profits is due to the African destinations - ont only that of course.

I found it very weird with the start of SNBA that they didn't start with serving Africa. They had to took the money, strange. After some months they started up some lines.

LJ · Post by LJ » 02 Aug 2005, 21:38

I disagree with your statement, why can an A319 not compete with the wide bodies, on some African routes?

For starters it doesn't offer a reasonable C-class product for an almost 6 hour flight (TLV, DAM, BEY and AMM are on the border of what a business pax would accept). Thus the business pax take the 330 flight (which means you don't gain much as you still have to send the A330 to DKR, but you needed the A330 anyway as you still want to fly cargo to DKR). If the weather conditions aren't good you've to make a fuel stop -> longer flight time -> less attractive for high fare paying pax -> lost of high fare pax to AF/LX.

Only viable operation for an A319 operation to Africa is someting which is similar to what AF is doing at present (special configurated A319 with high fares only). However, I doubt there is a market for SNBA for such flight.

BTW what do they do with the business pax if the A330 goes tech? Do they send them on AF or can they pursuade them to take the A319?

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 02 Aug 2005, 22:18

That's exactly what I ment LJ when saying that the A319 isn't suited for that route if they want to compete.

Business pax prefer the room and "luxus" of a widebody plane. Don't expect people to pay a lot to be able to fly on the A319.

Chris

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 03 Aug 2005, 18:56

The announcement can you read on Flysn. It will start in October. They increase the flights in that month. But I think it will be in that month only.

In total they are going to present 9 flights a week between Brussels and Tel Aviv.

I'm pleased this agreement. It's a strong band between the two carriers.
Go for it and come a lot with the B757 and B767, when the season is allowed

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 05 Aug 2005, 09:40

indeed, total number of flights will be 9, so although not explicitly mentioned, it will most certainly mean SN will stop some of its 6 weekly TLV flights with LY upgrading the 737 to a 757/767 on those days...

Now, let's wait for the announcement of the daily DKR service...... on A319.

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 05 Aug 2005, 09:51

A brief check on the booking engine learned that SN will operate the A319 to TLV on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Sunday (a total of 4 flights iso the current 6). On Saturdays (sabat), no flights are offered.

flyexel · Post by **flyexel** » 05 Aug 2005, 14:30

I just want to react on the fact that some of you find the A319 not suitable for TLV operations.

First of all the BRU-TLV flight is between 3h55-4h15 flightime and the TLV-BRU flight between 4h20-4h40,so not 6hrs like somebody mentioned on this forum.
If you see the business class product: choice of starter,choice of hotmeal and dessert it can surely compete against BA or AF!!
With the adjustable seats on the airbus they have acceptable seatpitch.