Qantas' fleet plan may be changing

bits44 · Post by **bits44** » 08 Jul 2005, 03:45

Ahh the battle continues.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/co ... 49,00.html

regi · Post by **regi** » 08 Jul 2005, 11:56

what is the problem?
If they order a A340 they got it right. Singapore, Thai and Emirates fly them on the very long routes already. It has been proven that the product fullfills the demand.
Or is there something else going on?

CXRules · Post by **CXRules** » 08 Jul 2005, 19:14

SQ didn't like the A340-300 and got rid of them. Although they're flying A340-500 now, they may eventually get rid of them and replace them with B777's. Based on some comments I read from SQ leadership, it's not out of the question.

As for Qantas, they do have A330's. If Boeing offers a good deal w/ 777/787, Qantas may get rid of 767 and A330 at the same time, according to a report. Or, they can buy the A340-500/600 along with more A330 or A350. Qantas has good relationship with Boeing (like JAL and ANA), and they pretty much have a all-Boeing fleet. (Ok, Jetstar doesn't count). So I think Boeing has an edge here.

regi · Post by **regi** » 09 Jul 2005, 18:11

Whatever SQ thought about its A340's , I gonna enjoy it next week on my Gulf Air flight, it are old SQ planes from Paris. Whatever they may say about B777, I prefer the 2-4-2 seating instead of the 3-4-3.

sab319 · Post by **sab319** » 09 Jul 2005, 20:37

regi wrote:Whatever SQ thought about its A340's , I gonna enjoy it next week on my Gulf Air flight, it are old SQ planes from Paris. Whatever they may say about B777, I prefer the 2-4-2 seating instead of the 3-4-3.

Most T7 are configured 3-3-3 or 2-5-2, I beleive only emirates has 3-4-3. But still 2-4-2 looks more comfortable in my opnion...

regi · Post by **regi** » 10 Jul 2005, 14:44

where did you get that information about gulfair seating 2-5-2?
As far as I can see on airliners net I count 2-4-2
http://images.airliners.net
and the website of gulfair
http://www.gulfairco.com/air/seatconf.asp#
also mentions clearly 2-4-2, also the A330.
Have I missed something? Please inform

Ovostar · Post by **Ovostar** » 10 Jul 2005, 15:37

CXRules wrote:SQ didn't like the A340-300 and got rid of them. Although they're flying A340-500 now, they may eventually get rid of them and replace them with B777's. Based on some comments I read from SQ leadership, it's not out of the question.

Why were they not happy with them ?

Buzz · Post by **Buzz** » 11 Jul 2005, 12:42

Ovostar wrote:
CXRules wrote:SQ didn't like the A340-300 and got rid of them. Although they're flying A340-500 now, they may eventually get rid of them and replace them with B777's. Based on some comments I read from SQ leadership, it's not out of the question.
Why were they not happy with them ?

In the second stage of their fleet expansion, Boeing gave them better deal on 777 and offered to take the 340's back. SQ took the deal.

Post by **sn26567** » 11 Jul 2005, 13:50

sab319 wrote:
regi wrote:Most T7 are configured 3-3-3 or 2-5-2, I believe only Emirates has 3-4-3.

Thai also has 3-4-3.

bits44 · Post by **bits44** » 11 Jul 2005, 14:30

Ovostar wrote:
CXRules wrote:SQ didn't like the A340-300 and got rid of them. Although they're flying A340-500 now, they may eventually get rid of them and replace them with B777's. Based on some comments I read from SQ leadership, it's not out of the question.
Why were they not happy with them ?

Right now with the price of fuel and the likelyhood of more increases in the future, economics dictates fleet requirements.

Economics

The Boeing 777-200LR Worldliner and 777-300ER have seat-mile costs that are 15 to 18 percent lower than the A340-500 and A340-600 models. Fuel burn is considerably lower -- 21 to 22 percent lower per seat for the longer-range 777s -- when compared to the A340-500 and A340-600. The 777 also uses advanced technology that lowers maintenance costs and makes maintenance more efficient.

For example, on a typical ultra-long-range route, such as Los Angeles-Singapore, the 777-200LR can carry 21 more passengers and 22,300 lbs. of additional cargo, compared to the A340-500. The twin-engine 777-200LR also consumes nearly 6,000 gallons of fuel less per flight.

at those rates it only makes economic sense to save money everywhere you can, and continue to survive.

source: Boeing/Airbus

BP · Post by BP » 11 Jul 2005, 17:03

The Boeing 777-200LR Worldliner and 777-300ER have seat-mile costs that are 15 to 18 percent lower than the A340-500 and A340-600 models. Fuel burn is considerably lower -- 21 to 22 percent lower per seat for the longer-range 777s -- when compared to the A340-500 and A340-600. The 777 also uses advanced technology that lowers maintenance costs and makes maintenance more efficient

Hi, Bitts44, I would be grateful if you could explain to me how you came up with these number? And explain which versions you are refering to.
The A340-600/A340-500 or the new and improved A340-500/600 HGW?

Regards,
BP

bits44 · Post by **bits44** » 11 Jul 2005, 17:31

Hi Bp

these figures are from a trade publication called Aircraft Economics which is an Industry Bible used to determine actual aircraft operating costs used in day to day service and unfortunately I am unable to provide a link due to the Publication being a subscription only service. I believe the figures they provide are for the Airbus models prior to HGW. However there are many others with the same information available, just Google search for 777-A340 seat cost per mile! there is a ton of info.

also a article re: the Air France rational for going to the 777 in spite of intense political pressure.

http://airtransportbiz.free.fr/AF/AF777-1.html

KT

Dutchyboi · Post by **Dutchyboi** » 14 Jul 2005, 13:05

Hey guys, Quick info that might interest all. Boeing are bringing their 772LR into SYD on Sunday night til Tuesday. No doubt this is to get QF Management to look thru it and hear all the info etc etc on it, am going up for it and take some pics and bring back any important news.

Cheers
Todd

Ovostar · Post by **Ovostar** » 26 Jul 2005, 00:12

bits44 wrote: Right now with the price of fuel and the likelyhood of more increases in the future, economics dictates fleet requirements.

Economics

The Boeing 777-200LR Worldliner and 777-300ER have seat-mile costs that are 15 to 18 percent lower than the A340-500 and A340-600 models. Fuel burn is considerably lower -- 21 to 22 percent lower per seat for the longer-range 777s -- when compared to the A340-500 and A340-600. The 777 also uses advanced technology that lowers maintenance costs and makes maintenance more efficient.

For example, on a typical ultra-long-range route, such as Los Angeles-Singapore, the 777-200LR can carry 21 more passengers and 22,300 lbs. of additional cargo, compared to the A340-500. The twin-engine 777-200LR also consumes nearly 6,000 gallons of fuel less per flight.

at those rates it only makes economic sense to save money everywhere you can, and continue to survive.

source: Boeing/Airbus

I was not aware of that , i thoght the airbus 340's were using less petrol than the 777, i was stupid to think that of a quadrireactor.....

Buzz wrote: In the second stage of their fleet expansion, Boeing gave them better deal on 777 and offered to take the 340's back. SQ took the deal.

What did Boeing with these 340's ?

sab319 · Post by **sab319** » 26 Jul 2005, 11:48

Ovostar wrote:
Buzz wrote: In the second stage of their fleet expansion, Boeing gave them better deal on 777 and offered to take the 340's back. SQ took the deal.
What did Boeing with these 340's ?

they are flying with emirates now...

bits44 · Post by **bits44** » 28 Jul 2005, 04:31

Qantas has hinted about its intentions!

http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/co ... 62,00.html

A380-800 · Post by **A380-800** » 30 Jul 2005, 21:04

sab319 wrote:
Ovostar wrote:
Buzz wrote: In the second stage of their fleet expansion, Boeing gave them better deal on 777 and offered to take the 340's back. SQ took the deal.
What did Boeing with these 340's ?
they are flying with emirates now...

Not only with UAE ! Also with GFA and ETD and CAL.

rgds,

A380-800

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 30 Jul 2005, 22:04

bits44 wrote:The Boeing 777-200LR Worldliner and 777-300ER have seat-mile costs that are 15 to 18 percent lower than the A340-500 and A340-600 models. Fuel burn is considerably lower -- 21 to 22 percent lower per seat for the longer-range 777s -- when compared to the A340-500 and A340-600. The 777 also uses advanced technology that lowers maintenance costs and makes maintenance more efficient.

Not that I want to save Airbus's ass at any cost but I found these numbers untrue. Anyway, I would be glad if you can provide me a copy of the article.

Concerning AF choice back in 1993, it concerns B777-200ER versus A340-300. What a pity that Alain Mengus doesn't seem updating his site anymore...

Regards

Seb.

bits44 · Post by **bits44** » 31 Jul 2005, 02:41

Certainly!

Longest range commercial airplane in the world
Provisions for up to three optional fuel tanks have been added in the aft cargo area of the 777-200LR to be able to fly a range of 9,420 nautical miles (17,446 kilometers) with full passenger payload (301 passengers). Even without the optional fuel tanks, the 777-200LR can fly as far as the competition, the A340-500.
The 777-200LR adds value to the 777 family, and particularly complements the popular 777-200ER. On long-range routes served by the 777-200ER, the 777-200LR provides an additional 53,100 lbs. of revenue cargo capability.
The 777-200LR also serves as the platform for the Boeing 777 Freighter, the world’s largest, most capable twin-engine freighter. Boeing launched the 777 Freighter in May 2005.
Largest long-range twin-engine jetliner
The 777-300ER extends the 777 family’s span of capabilities, bringing twin-engine efficiency and reliability to the long-range market. The airplane carries 365 passengers up to 7,880 nautical miles (14,594 kilometers).
Boeing has announced several performance enhancements for the 777-300ER, extending its range and payload capabilities. Excellent performance during flight testing, combined with engine efficiency improvements and design changes that reduce drag and airplane weight, contributed to the increased capability. The benefits were also applied during development of the 777-200LR and the 777 Freighter.

Technology
Approximately 35 percent of the 777-300ER and 777-200LR Worldliner design has been changed from earlier 777 models, although passengers won’t notice it. New value-added technology has been added to make the world’s most technologically advanced airplane even more high-tech. Each wing has been extended by 6.5 feet by adding raked wingtips to improve overall aerodynamic and fuel efficiency. The raked wingtips help reduce takeoff field length, increase climb performance and reduce fuel burn.
The body, wing, empennage and nose gear of the airplanes were strengthened and new main landing gear, wheels, tires and brakes were installed. New semi-levered landing gear permits takeoffs on shorter runways. The struts and nacelles were modified to accommodate the significantly higher-thrust engines. The airplanes are powered exclusively by the General Electric GE90-115B engine, the world’s largest and most powerful commercial jet engine, producing 115,000 pounds of thrust (derated to 110,000 lbs. on the 777-200LR).
Tail-strike protection is standard on both models. This software feature helps prevent inadvertent scraping of the tail on the runway at takeoff or landing by commanding elevator movement if the airplane’s attitude exceeds preset limits.

Economics
The Boeing 777-200LR Worldliner and 777-300ER have seat-mile costs that are 16 to 20 percent lower than the A340-500 and A340-600 models. Fuel burn is considerably lower – 22 to 24 percent lower per seat for the longer-range 777s – when compared to the A340-500 and A340-600. The 777 also uses advanced technology that lowers maintenance costs and makes maintenance more efficient.
For example, on a typical ultra-long-range route, such as Los Angeles-Singapore, the 777-200LR can carry 21 more passengers and 22,300 lbs. of additional cargo, compared to the A340-500. The twin-engine 777-200LR also consumes nearly 6,000 gallons of fuel less per flight.

Also read the article regarding the Air France decision to purchase 777's
it expounds on the rational used to specify the Boeing aircraft.

http://airtransportbiz.free.fr/AF/AF777-1.html

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 31 Jul 2005, 12:30

Thanks bits! Still find these numbers hard to believe...

Off topic, but interresting:

Aircraft Economics wrote:...New semi-levered landing gear permits takeoffs on shorter runways.

I've studied this system a little bit last year. AFAIK, we can found it on B777-200LR, B777-200LR F and B777-300ER only (don't know about the B777-300). The B777-200ER isn't involved. Basically, when the aircraft take off and start lift up, the main gears entend and only the last 2 wheels touch the runway (the aircraft is still horizontal). Then the aircraft can roll (you will notice that the aircraft has more room under the fuselage now, it prevents tail strike also!).

Regards

Seb.