Will there be an Airbus A380 just like the Boeing 747 combi?

McSteve · Post by **McSteve** » 29 Jul 2005, 15:03

Does anybody know if there will be a a380 combi like the 747 combi klm uses?

Ivan_Eagle · Post by **Ivan_Eagle** » 29 Jul 2005, 15:29

I'm sorry but i don't understand you're question.
I wane help, but i don't understand

SORRY

Greats Ivan

McSteve · Post by **McSteve** » 29 Jul 2005, 15:39

combi verions of the klm contain both cargo and people not only in the normal cargo bay but also at the back of the aircraft in the area normally used for passengers klm has like 17 747-400 combi's that can either be used as fully passenger planes or half cargo half passenger so if there is a route with quite big cargo demand and also passenger demand but not enough you could do it the combi way. And because the a380 is really big it would be ilde for both alot of cargo and still alot of passengers or am I not correct

sab319 · Post by **sab319** » 29 Jul 2005, 16:29

Well the FAA doesn't certifie Combi's anymore, so if they would build one they can't fly it to the US, that's why I don't think there will be a A380 combi, I can be wrong though...

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 29 Jul 2005, 17:10

Nothing has been released yet concerning an A380 combi, however I suspect it will happens.

Concerning KLM future fleet plan, some B777-300ERs and B777-200LR F + eventually some B747-ADVs could replace the current B747-400s fleet (pax + combis + freighters).

Regards

Seb.

V-Bird · Post by **V-Bird** » 29 Jul 2005, 19:19

HorsePower wrote:Nothing has been released yet concerning an A380 combi, however I suspect it will happens.

Concerning KLM future fleet plan, some B777-300ERs and B777-200LR F + eventually some B747-ADVs could replace the current B747-400s fleet (pax + combis + freighters).

Regards

Seb.

the 747 - 400 erf ( extended range frighter ) of klm are just 2 - 3 years old.......................

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 29 Jul 2005, 21:00

McSteve wrote:combi verions of the klm contain both cargo and people not only in the normal cargo bay but also at the back of the aircraft in the area normally used for passengers

Well that is called the main deck, McSteve.
Suppose, for the A380, the main deck will be the lower of the two? The passenger space in the 747's hump is called upper deck.
But I can imagine that the main deck of an A380 can be used for bulky cargo and the higher deck for passengers, because the total weight (btw the take off weight is always higher than the landing weight, guess why) may not exceed the runway limit. In KLM's case they could fly eg their flowers, if they find the markets big enough....
Because that is the reason KLM flies Combis*: the market can not carry the volume a full cargo 747 load would put on the tarmac. So KLM combines pax and cargo in one operation: the same crew handles a passenger flight and a cargo one, it is a matter of economics.
Now when you put on the tarmac such a volume a A380 main deck would carry, you need indeed a market place that can sell this volume.
So I fear it is not economically envisageable. Technically, I suppose Airbus would be able to fix that job.
*Sabena was flying DC10 combis, the cargo there was in front on the main deck, as was on their B707s, their B727s already in the 60 & 70s. KLM was not the first to do that, not by far.

V-Bird · Post by **V-Bird** » 29 Jul 2005, 21:14

SN30952 wrote:
McSteve wrote:combi verions of the klm contain both cargo and people not only in the normal cargo bay but also at the back of the aircraft in the area normally used for passengers
Well that is called the main deck, McSteve.
Suppose, for the A380, the main deck will be the lower of the two? The passenger space in the 747's hump is called upper deck.
But I can imagine that the main deck of an A380 can be used for bulky cargo and the higher deck for passengers, because the total weight (btw the take off weight is always higher than the landing weight, guess why) may not exceed the runway limit. In KLM's case they could fly eg their flowers, if they find the markets big enough....
Because that is the reason KLM flies Combis*: the market can not carry the volume a full cargo 747 load would put on the tarmac. So KLM combines pax and cargo in one operation: the same crew handles a passenger flight and a cargo one, it is a matter of economics.
Now when you put on the tarmac such a volume a A380 main deck would carry, you need indeed a market place that can sell this volume.
So I fear it is not economically envisageable. Technically, I suppose Airbus would be able to fix that job.
*Sabena was flying DC10 combis, the cargo there was in front on the main deck, as was on their B707s, their B727s already in the 60 & 70s. KLM was not the first to do that, not by far.

Only the dc-10, an fancy old 707 and 727 just that? for all the Belgian export???? Realy Fons, just that? Normal airliners fly`s the dc-10 combi`s, dc-10 convertibles, md-11 converibles, airbus a310 convertibles, 747 combi`s and 747 convertibles like KLM and martinair so please stop with youre Sabena was flying DC10 combis, the cargo there was in front on the main deck, as was on their B707s, their B727s already in the 60 & 70s. KLM was not the first to do that, not by far. :wink

Back to topic: I think indeed that an a380 combi would maby an succes, only not at the american market, and airlines what will fly the plane to and from the USA

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 30 Jul 2005, 08:58

sab319 wrote:Well the FAA doesn't certifie Combi's anymore, so if they would build one they can't fly it to the US.

Does anyone knows why the FAA won't certify any more Combi's?

Something to do with terrorist attacks and/or safety?

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 30 Jul 2005, 11:06

B744skipper wrote:
sab319 wrote:Well the FAA doesn't certifie Combi's anymore, so if they would build one they can't fly it to the US.
Does anyone knows why the FAA won't certify any more Combi's?

Indeed: The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) had issued a new draft Flight Standards Handbook Bulletin for Airworthiness (HBAW) 00-CARGO replacing four previous attempts to resolve this issue affecting all transport-category aircraft used in cargo and combi aircraft operated under Part 135.

FAA seems not only to consider combis as 'deja vu' but also as out of date.

teach wrote:
It is just an idea.
No A330 Combi exists, and it never will[/b]. Apparently, the FAA will not certify any new Combi aircraft that carry passengers and cargo on the same deck.

FAA has a lot of questions about the safety, ranging from Effectiveness of Flight Attendants Attempting to Extinguish Fires in an Accessible Cargo Compartment to the use of converted (old) aircraft. (And that even in tempore non suspecto...)

The review wrote: the effectiveness of the Class B requirements was undertaken following the in-flight fire and subsequent crash of a South African Airways B747* into the Indian Ocean in 1987. The fire originated in the forward section of a main deck Class B cargo compartment. The crew was not able to control the fire which continued to grow and resulted in the crash and fatal injuries to all 159 occupants. The ignition source for the fire was never determined. Prior to that accident, there had never been a fire in a Class B cargo compartment that was not controllable. However, the occurrence of any fires in Class B cargo compartments has been extremely rare. The FAA published an Airworthiness Directive (AD) that applied to transport size aircraft manufactured by Boeing and McDonnell Douglas and operated as combis. This rule change eliminated the reliance on a crew member with hand-held fire extinguishers as the means of controlling a cargo fire. It provided the operators with a number of options ranging from a total flood fire suppression system to covering all cargo pallets or containers with fire-resistant material.

Combis are dinosaurs of aviation, whaterver the not so-well informed V-bird guys may write.
*a Combi

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 30 Jul 2005, 11:13

V-Bird wrote:the 747 - 400 erf ( extended range frighter ) of klm are just 2 - 3 years old.......................

... and AF just receive their last one in June this year, I know..., What I meant is their won't be any place for A380, even the combi version. KL management said to AF they were not interrested by the A380 (too big).

So the KL widebodies fleet will be constituted around the B777 and B747-Adv (and some A330s). AF used combis in the past but converted them into either pax or full freighter version (3 combis in pax are going to be converted in full freighter by 2007-2008). So it depends of the FAA (are they going to alloy the B747-Adv combi, considering it's not a completely new aircraft?) and of the KL management of course (do they want to continue with combi aircrafts? Do they make money enough with them?).

I personnally think the best way to replace these 17 combis (KLM) is a bunch of B777-300ER + B777-200LR F. Concerning the 5 B747-400s pax, KL have the choice to use either more B777-300ER or B747-Adv. I have to say 5 aircrafts is very little, even considering fleet grows (5 + 3 new B747-Adv ?).

Regards

Seb.

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 30 Jul 2005, 11:46

HorsePower wrote:I personnally think the best way to replace these 17 combis (KLM) is a bunch of B777-300ER + B777-200LR F. Seb.

Yes, I would agree on that, that is a good way to do it, Seb, a flock of B777's of either genus.

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Will there be an Airbus A380 just like the Boeing 747 combi?

Will there be an Airbus A380 just like the Boeing 747 combi?

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