Africa network SN Brussels Airlines

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 27 Jul 2005, 17:23

If Accra is a future destination of SNBA: good chose. Why all the criticism about competition, it's up to SNBA to proof that they are better, good prices, perfect service, etc. If only the destinations with less competition are flown by SNBA then they keep their books closed because it means that they are not attracting enough. And the management: was the former management better??? If so, SABENA was still flying!!

Sabena and now SNBA have a strong name and good relations with Africa so let them fly were they want. And about the small market, Zaventem attract people from France to the airport for flights to Africa. And it's up to BIAC to attract more big airlines so they can give connections with the whole world like years ago.

Everybody can gives critics, but good solutions or something else: noop and that's a pity.

Airbus330lover · Post by **Airbus330lover** » 27 Jul 2005, 17:29

The real pbl at snba in my view is ...the management.
It is definitely not in my view up to the terrible challenges the airline is facing...

So many months even years gone with no boldness in action, no decisive move, no change...
Already I feel it could be too late to save the african "niche"...
And what is a niche worth if it is not sustained by external feeding ?
From Europe, N-America and Japan.
With own metal or through agreements with partners.

I see no strategy in the current snba network development (or absence of development) I said it here at times because I find it dramatic such an inertia at the head when so much is needed !!

Urgently needed (I was already stating this last year !!) is expansion to Africa because this is the only possible lung for the belgian carrier. Sabena was a great name on that continent ; since 2001 snba tentatively delivers a pale copy , seems more and more exhausted if you want my opinion..

Aircrafts are everywhere to find on lease, so this is not the reason for such stagnation.
Now is time for competing with the greats on that great continent. SNBA need to double the frequencies if they want to survive there.
And fix some effective feeding channels (with AA or ANA)
And if it is not possible to achieve, then do it with own metal (Japan, China to the East, NYC, BOS, YUL to the west; perhaps ORD because it is an AA partner hub)

Cities to serve in Africa : mostly the ones that were served so nicely by sabena ...with some necessary arrangements because the context is changing.
I would add ACC because it is a growing place
LOS (Lagos) is a must (TYO-BRU-LOS would be nice)
LFW (Lome) and COO (Cotonou) are interesting
PHC (Port-Harcourt) is worth considering
CKY (Conakry) was at a time a sabena exclusivity.
MLW despite endemic civil war is worth serving because demand to/from US persists.
FNA (Freetown) is a matter for discussion...
Not sure that the sahel region or Sudan/Ethiopia is opportune though.

But time is running , running, running OUT !Oh yes !

The time to have an airline to simply fly to as many destinations as possible is finished.
Now the airlines (privatized or not) fly to make money.
It's the normal way to business. The old politic (SN and other) is for the glorious past not for the future

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 27 Jul 2005, 18:44

Atlantis wrote:Sabena and now SNBA have a strong name and good relations with Africa so let them fly were they want. And about the small market, Zaventem attract people from France to the airport for flights to Africa. And it's up to BIAC to attract more big airlines so they can give connections with the whole world like years ago.

Well do agree with your quote up to a certain point! Ok people from lille might be tempted to fly from Brussels but what we are looking for are business people... So no offense to the people from northern France but you will find a lot more people in Paris!

And guess what it takes 1h25 to go from Brussels to Charles de Gaulle by train, but about 1h50 if u don't have to switch trains to go to Brussels national! (Ok the time between Lille to Brussels and Paris is about the same)

So don't think there is a market there unfortunately! Charles de Gaulle is already stealing customers from Brussels so Imagine when the high speed line to Amsterdam will be opened.... Many many Belgian customers might be tempted to go to africa through a different airport for example!

Shame but u got to be a realist! Not a dreamer!!! I'm not criticizing for the sake of it unfortunately!

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 27 Jul 2005, 18:46

Airbus330lover wrote:Now the airlines (privatized or not) fly to make money.

Not completely true. Look at Delsey Airlines and other short term airlines. They thought with serving some destinations making money in a short period. And what we see: They are all gone.

Running an airline is more then that.

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 27 Jul 2005, 18:59

@ Vinnie-Winnie

I'm not a dreamer, that must be clear

We have indeed lost a lot of big airlines the last years: Thai Airways, China Eastern, VASP, Vietnam Airlines, etc. That was big time for our airport. They are now on the neighbor airports but also these airports can be always expanding. Look at Schiphol: big question these days, are they going to expand or shrink a bit?

There are founded airlines and airlines disappear. Look at Etihad, first flight in November last year. Within a year they are going to fly on Zaventem. This are the airlines that we need.

This is not a dream but reality. The market is still moving and also the customers are moving. Now we go to LHR or FRA or CdG or AMS, time will come that we, not for all of course, can travel to further destinations out of Zaventem.

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 27 Jul 2005, 19:22

@Altantis

Wow didn't about all these companies serving bru in the past ... Thanks for the info!

Unfortunately even though I don't think you intended to prove my point I think U just did! All these companies left brussels because they either made a loss on the route and/or that they didn't see a future for their routes to Brussels...

Think they did enough analysis to see that well if Belgians want to fly far away directly they will probably not mind going to the airports U mentioned above!

Why did etihad decide to serve Brussels U might ask then? Well I got my own little explanation: First of all Etihad needed a not too congesterd airport to have a quick turnaround. I don't really think that they stop to brussels just because they see a bright future in direct links between Abu Dhabi and Brussels! Secondly well yes it's very convenient indeed to be able to pick up passengers for both destinations. Since no company flies from brussels to Toronto and Abu Dhabi they basically they get the cake and the cherry that goes with it

beaucaire · Post by **beaucaire** » 27 Jul 2005, 19:46

http://allafrica.com/stories/200507270202.html

the interesting sentence is that SN Brussels are lookin g into East-Africa...
(Tanzania,Zansibar..)

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 27 Jul 2005, 19:58

I had read yesterday that a big airline, sorry I forgot the name

, leave Zanzibar due to the very bad conditions of the airport.

This remind me of the accident of the BelgiumExel flight to Zanzibar last year. When the aircraft touched the runway a flare of hail damaged the aircraft.

Boeing747-nurse · Post by **Boeing747-nurse** » 27 Jul 2005, 23:06

At this moment ( and as from the beginning in 2002 )SNBA is undercapitalized; the shareholders of SNBA-holding aren't very interested in aviation-industry and the mid- and long term future of SNBA.
The only thing they want, is to sell it as soon as possible, and with some profit of course ( don't forget the Belgian government "forced" some shareholders to put money in the development of this company ).
The managment can't act without the permission of the shareholders ( for example...the 4the airbus A330...the shareholders had to give permission for it )
So, till SNBA has not being sold, I think we don't have to expect a lot of this airline...but...when it will be sold, and it will ( watch 2006!!! ), then maybe some of our Brussels dreams can become reality.
On the doorstep are waiting BA and AA ( many actual signs can predict this ) to buy SNBA; it would be very good for ONEWORLD to have an impact between CDG and AMS ( Skyteam ). And AA keeps on looking for another hub in Europe.....Bru?!...of course future will tell

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 28 Jul 2005, 16:46

It is known for years that BA is interesting in SNBA.

We wil see.

sn-remember · Post by **sn-remember** » 28 Jul 2005, 17:21

shareholders of SNBA-holding aren't very interested in aviation-industry and the mid- and long term future of SNBA.
The only thing they want, is to sell it as soon as possible

Well why don't they sell now ??
Each day gone by is lost and the value of the Co is meanwhile sinking ...
And I am not sure that the prospect of the Cy changing hands should be an excuse for irresponsible day-to-day management !

But I would try to get a few smaller planes that could do the same distances! This could decrease costs compared to the a330

Higher frequencies with smaller airplanes.

I think you make a point here...maybe snba should reconsider its A330 fleet option in favor of smaller a/c should capacity be an issue; I remember suggesting last year the B757 as a possible alternative (see how ET succeed to exploit this beautiful bird !)

The time to have an airline to simply fly to as many destinations as possible is finished.

This is not the point.Of course!
But you don't have 2 options if you want to develop an african "niche" from BRU.
Imh there is only one way to achieve this; as I said a comprehensive african ntwk (6 or 7 daily rotations) coupled with key feeding from Europe and N-America (ideally also Japan and China)in partnership if possible. However I see a foothold in N-E America as desirable to the Cy survival (NYC,BOS,YUL,possibly CHI).

Small country small market that is the problem of snba!!!!

Let's compare SN with TP or LX (or OA?) because their home countries or catching areas are similar even smaller. What do you observe? All 3 airlines have a ww spread and (except for OA) good commercial prospects within strong alliances. And now let us be more daring: compare with KL; after all the NTHLDs are only half more populated than Belgium and the catching area of BRU city is even slightly bigger than that of AMS city. I don't have the figures but I am confident that the terminating traffic at Schiphol is not that higher than the one at Zaventem. The big difference obviously lies with the transit traffic ! That's why when snba managers decide a route (

), it is not enough to sell for ex a daily flight BRU-NBO ...They should instead try selling a N-E-America(NYC/BOS/YUL/CHI)-BRU-NBO. Sorry imho there is no alternative way to effectively secure an african niche from BRU.

the interesting sentence is that SN Brussels are lookin g into East-Africa... (Tanzania,Zansibar..)

And KL opens a 3 wkly flight to EBB !
Last year I pondered about the "best" ntwk possibilities for snba and I remember that I retained a daily flight to EBB. Already I felt it was a weak point in the present snba offer; but anyway the whole offer is to me pretty weak at present , that's why there is worry on this thread! (For those interested I had in mind 4wkly BRU-EBB-KGL and 3wkly BRU-EBB-BJM + a daily BRU-NBO)Btw is BJM still a SNBA desti?and if not, why?
Back to the Tanzania proposal : DAR is a success with LX since decades (and it was long ago served by sabena then abandoned, as was LUN for a shortwhile long ago) possible cities to couple with: Mombasa or Zanzibar or Kilimanjaro? (of course tourist pax !)
The study to go to Zambia is interesting : At very first glance a BRU-FBM(Lubumbashi)-LUN(Lusaka) sounds attractive. Remind that SA recently opened a JNB-FBM link (2 or 3wkly) but I am not sure though that the runway is long enough for A330 a/c?
Greetz
Christophe

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 28 Jul 2005, 21:23

What will happen in 2006

Are you really shure of this?

Boeing747-nurse · Post by **Boeing747-nurse** » 28 Jul 2005, 23:11

They can not sell SNBA at this moment; When SNBA has been founded in 2002, there was an agreement between the share-holders, not to sell the company till 2006.
So, from the beginning of next year, they have the possibility to sell the company.
During a "breakfast-meeting" last year, Mr Rob Kuypers told the staff that the company will be sold in the future; the only thing he certainly wants, is that the buyer(s) will be good investors, and not a company who wants , at the end, non-development and the dead of this airline...
So wait for 2006...

itami · Post by **itami** » 29 Jul 2005, 12:57

Boeing747-nurse wrote: So, till SNBA has not being sold, I think we don't have to expect a lot of this airline...but...when it will be sold, and it will ( watch 2006!!! ), then maybe some of our Brussels dreams can become reality.
On the doorstep are waiting BA and AA ( many actual signs can predict this ) to buy SNBA; it would be very good for ONEWORLD to have an impact between CDG and AMS ( Skyteam ). And AA keeps on looking for another hub in Europe.....Bru?!...of course future will tell

To my feeling it will be nor BA nor AA. Watch out for SQ who also owns 49% of Virgin Atlantic. If they buy SNBA then they will be able to manage their own worldwide alliance : SQ in Asia, VS in the Atlantic Area and SN at BRU with it's European hub and gateway to Africa. However I don't expect it before 2007. :heyyou:

sn-remember · Post by **sn-remember** » 29 Jul 2005, 14:18

Who would buy snba ?
BA, AA, SQ ... or AF/KL who knows?
Whatever the buyer might be, the best interests of bru and its carrier should be secured ..if possible !!

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 29 Jul 2005, 14:28

itami wrote:
Boeing747-nurse wrote: So, till SNBA has not being sold, I think we don't have to expect a lot of this airline...but...when it will be sold, and it will ( watch 2006!!! ), then maybe some of our Brussels dreams can become reality.
On the doorstep are waiting BA and AA ( many actual signs can predict this ) to buy SNBA; it would be very good for ONEWORLD to have an impact between CDG and AMS ( Skyteam ). And AA keeps on looking for another hub in Europe.....Bru?!...of course future will tell
To my feeling it will be nor BA nor AA. Watch out for SQ who also owns 49% of Virgin Atlantic. If they buy SNBA then they will be able to manage their own worldwide alliance : SQ in Asia, VS in the Atlantic Area and SN at BRU with it's European hub and gateway to Africa. However I don't expect it before 2007. :heyyou:

I don't believe in transatlantic mergers... Why well easy to much of a hassle! Some countries even defend other airlines from taking over strategic industries! That's why Singapore only took a 49% share.
Think we should look into european players!
AA and BA tried twice to marry but it never happened cause of landing slots. Time to open up the worldwide sky!

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 29 Jul 2005, 16:42

Sorry about my scepticism but I don't trust AA. I don't think that we want a SABENA 2 disaster. AA has only made in quarter 2 of this year a profit. It was the first one since 2000!!! I don't think that's a good idea being a part of an airline in trubble. That they develop a hub in Brussels oke, but not a marriage with SN.

Maybe a big asian carrier or a big one from Europe. I have a feeling that BA can be an important player.

Wait and see.

Boeing747-nurse · Post by **Boeing747-nurse** » 30 Jul 2005, 16:10

You don't have to worry that AA will buy a big part of SNBA ( is they would buy of course ), because there is a rule that investors from out of the EU can't buy a whole company ( this to protect the european market, I think ); so the big part will go to a European player...
I don't remember the amount an investor out of the EU can buy of a company in EU...maybe someone can give more details...

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 30 Jul 2005, 17:43

Boeing747-nurse wrote:I don't remember the amount an investor out of the EU can buy of a company in EU...maybe someone can give more details...

I'd say about 49%... That's the amount of shares Singapore Airlines bought from Richard Branson for Virgin Atlantic.

LJ · Post by LJ » 30 Jul 2005, 23:37

Back to the Tanzania proposal : DAR is a success with LX since decades (and it was long ago served by sabena then abandoned, as was LUN for a shortwhile long ago) possible cities to couple with: Mombasa or Zanzibar or Kilimanjaro? (of course tourist pax !)

DAR is already well served by KL, BA and LX. It will be difficult to enter this market. JRO is served daily by KL and they make their money by transporting roses to AMS (in addition to the tourists visiting the Serengeti desert near Arusha). Making money on tourists is always a question on yield. Furthermore KL gets some of its pax from the US, a place where SN doesn't have many connections to. I don't see why business pax should go to JRO.

Lusaka and Lumbumbashi sounds plausible, but only if there is a demand ex Europe

compare with KL; after all the NTHLDs are only half more populated than Belgium and the catching area of BRU city is even slightly bigger than that of AMS city.

But Brussels doesn't have something called "Aalsmeer" and the trade associated with the flower auction. Add to that the biggest harbour in Europe and the close proximity of the number two in Europe (Antwerp) and see why AMS get a lot of traffic.

BTW the number of large Dutch multinationals exceed the number of large Belgian multinationals, and these generate a good portion of traffic at an airport. Thus the catchment area of AMS is larger than that of BRU (both in pax as in cargo)