Jet Airways to BRU ?

Advisor · Post by **Advisor** » 15 Jun 2005, 20:00

Atlantis wrote:
asianboy wrote:9w flight to EWR will begin before the end of july one month later....
It's better to posponed with a month then blow up the whole thing!

I second what you say.

Am in process of updating content here by attaching several scanned news paper copy cuttings of this topis. Pl bear ppl.

Rayman · Post by **Rayman** » 15 Jun 2005, 21:50

When this thread started (Rayman is late indeed) there was a lot of enthusiasm, another step for the re-population of Zaventem for long hauls and wide birds. :mexwave:
There was a kind of “YES, YES, YES” in each post. :kvole:

How can this turn into so much negativity

Don't tell me because you prefer to look at reality, because reality can only be supported by adequate figures. :contract:

SN30952 wrote:As far as I can extrapolate: there is no market for 50 pax BOM on a 6/7 or 7/7 basis out of BRU.

OK, but we know it’s not only BOM en not only Belgium.

....Passengers like to leave from Europe and arrive at destination on the same flight. ...

Are we re-inventing the wheel or something?

regi wrote:....I am waiting for the Etihad flights. If this will come, bye bye Jet Airways.

"Bye bye Zaventem" says 9W.

Or maybe we can ventilate/whisper to Jet Airways that this is absolutely not the right move and that AMS, market wise, better feeded and de-feeded with good SPA agreement, can be more lucrative.

Come on guys

LJ · Post by LJ » 15 Jun 2005, 23:24

Or maybe we can ventilate/whisper to Jet Airways that this is absolutely not the right move and that AMS, market wise, better feeded and de-feeded with good SPA agreement, can be more lucrative.

Without any doubt that IF 9W joins Skyteam or is serious about joining Skyteam both CDG and AMS would be better options (and given the long standing ties between KL/NW and 9W I would say AMS above CDG). However the slots at AMS are cancelled and thus no hope that they'll come to AMS in the near future. Futhermore, if 9W comes to either CDG or AMS I would expect a point-to-point flight, not as a stopover enroute (as this seriously reduces the amount of transfer pax 9W could put through an euroepan hub).

OK, but we know it’s not only BOM en not only Belgium.

I can't see which other markets are interesting for 9W. The market from The Netherlands is very limited as fares out of AMS are already rock bottom, especially in the SIN and KUL markets. I don't think 9W will sell flights to India in The Netherlands openly as KLM (one of 9W's codeshare partners) won't like this (and I do think the revenue 9W receives from the codeshare deal exceeds any revenue from a few pax from The Netherlands. Moreover I do think 9W will not push hard in the Dutch market as KL is very dominant (and with AF not a small customer for 9W).

BTW I hope BRU gets the EWR flight as I can assure you that a day spotting in EWR is very nice (or for those not interested in spotting a day shopping in New York).

Rayman · Post by **Rayman** » 16 Jun 2005, 02:37

LJ, I would love a day spotting, never done it before. I might use some good tips from you.

By reading from you that fares out of AMS are already at rock bottom, I have to recall that I already saw this statement elsewhere here on Luchtzak. Is this a general philosophy (a kind of indoctrination) or is this based on facts?
Yield is eroded the last years, but still is maintaining an acceptable level compared with other markets. Never trust promo-campaigns or ads.
Since I can remember (almost 2 decades), one of my main competitors was the huge volatility heading BRU.

I have to make some amendments:

SIN and KUL, according to my IATA-BSP figs, have been sold (industry year) at the respective avg of 1.100 and 1.050 euro (not BEF or NLG) and that’s a respectable yield.
BTW, BOM 930 and DEL 790, JFK 725 and EWR 575.

About partnership, 9W implemented marketing cooperation in FFP (reciprocal accrual and redemption) with KL/NW, but also with BA as well. This is understandable due to heavy feeders from US/EU into Indian domestic and v.v..
Still I cannot find anything that leads to a solid revenue related codeshare. Of course there are SPA agreements in place, but those are very common and don’t mean a lot.

Moreover, it is true that slots have been cancelled, still a L.O.I. has been signed (just 4 weeks ago) between NL and IN for extending rights from 7/7 to 14/7 next winter and 21/7 next summer, and to my knowledge these agreements are quite often bi-lateral. Political agreement? Maybe.

Too many speculations, too many. Lets keep it plausible.

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 16 Jun 2005, 15:21

On the site of BIAC, more specific Arrival and Departing, you can see now the advertising of the new flight of Jet Airways to Mumbai.

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » 16 Jun 2005, 15:27

Let's give them free publicity

EBAW_flyer · Post by **EBAW_flyer** » 16 Jun 2005, 17:01

Not only online, but there is also advertisement of the route in the Brussels Departure hall.

Advisor · Post by **Advisor** » 17 Jun 2005, 09:21

EBAW_flyer wrote:Not only online, but also is also advertisement of the route in the Brussels Departure hall.

This is good news then

LJ · Post by LJ » 17 Jun 2005, 17:55

By reading from you that fares out of AMS are already at rock bottom, I have to recall that I already saw this statement elsewhere here on Luchtzak. Is this a general philosophy (a kind of indoctrination) or is this based on facts?

I don't consider EUR 350 during mid season (august - september) a very high price for a nonstop flight on CO (and still seats avaiable). Moreover during low season the fares will probably drop again to about EUR 199 for a flight to New York. For SIN/KUL a EUR 600 fare is a normal price. However even in these markets I've seen prices go down to EUR 500. Moreover, Emirates has mentioned this many times. USAirways is wellknown for dumping seats once in a while.

Finally, AMS lacks the premium traffic which LON, FRA and PAR have. I agree that there are large companies in The Netherlands, but I can assure you that they don't pay as much for their tickets as you and I pay.

SIN and KUL, according to my IATA-BSP figs, have been sold (industry year) at the respective avg of 1.100 and 1.050 euro (not BEF or NLG) and that’s a respectable yield.
BTW, BOM 930 and DEL 790, JFK 725 and EWR 575.

I don't know how IATA calculates these averages (do they take C-claas fares aswell and do they only count the IATA published fares etc.?) and thus won't comment on the averages, but I've some doubts about these numbers.

Never trust promo-campaigns or ads.

But I do trust the offers I get from a friend of mine who is a travel agent.

Rayman · Post by **Rayman** » 17 Jun 2005, 22:16

LJ,
The derivate of IATA-BSP (Billing Settlement Plan) calculates the average simply by summing all documents’ fares of the end/most far tkt destination (even conjunction tkts) and dividing the total sold by the number of document issued; all documents and all fares, including IT flat fares where no price is printed but well reported in each billing analysis of both Airline and Agent. All these billings together match the bottom-line of cash-flow between Agencie(s) and Airline(s) (and Industry).

Average fare discrepancies, in excess or defect, due to e.g. open jaw, refunds and heavy back-track with stop over, can be estimated at 2-3%.

Someone (that's me BTW), who used to be member of an IATA-BSP Working Group (together with other 5 main carriers), can assure you that those figures (next to MIDT Marketing information Data Tape) are accurate for both macro and detailed analysis purpose, environmental scan, mapping, monitoring, adjustments, decision making etc.

Note:
1) Airline direct-sales are not in those (avg fare) figures and won’t change the outcome that much, as they do not (in principle) undercut distribution and are much lower in volume if compared with distribution sales.

2) Charters are also not included, but that’s not the case for involvement looking at our targeted destinations.

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 18 Jun 2005, 01:30

LJ wrote:
SIN and KUL, according to my IATA-BSP figs, have been sold (industry year) at the respective avg of 1.100 and 1.050 euro (not BEF or NLG) and that’s a respectable yield.
BTW, BOM 930 and DEL 790, JFK 725 and EWR 575.
I don't know how IATA calculates these averages (do they take C-claas fares aswell and do they only count the IATA published fares etc.?) and thus won't comment on the averages, but I've some doubts about these numbers.

Rayman wrote:The derivate of IATA-BSP (Billing Settlement Plan) calculates the average simply by summing all documents’ fares

What I think is that IATA/BSP has the listing of what the travel agents issue, that's how they report their sales.

Coupons go to the airlines that uplift them. From the uplifted coupons, some go to the clearing.

So as usual, and as it always will be, statistics are and will be statistics.
The face value on your coupon is not always what you pay. In many cases, you pay a discounted fare, but that fare does not appear on the ticket.

What is on the ticket is in some cases what you paid, and in ALL other cases more than what is paid. The face value as it is called, does not always reflect the amount paid.
What I think is that the mentioned statistics are based on face values. Airlines do NOT count with these stats, for obvious reasons. (Although, for some airlines in the past, it looked that way, and that explains their losses....

)

In fact, the real revenue averages are well kept secrets of each airline.
The calculation of the total passenger revenue of a relation is already very if not almost impossible to calculate exactly, as is the total cost of such relation. That's why cost savings sometimes do not reach the (fysical) target, and why bigger airlines have more difficulties to calculate,and attribute costs and revenue to a particular relation.

Rayman · Post by **Rayman** » 18 Jun 2005, 15:56

SN30952,

Indeed that was the practice some years ago, before the introduction of flat or net-fares and before “deregulation”, where airlines had only published fares agreed at IATA conferences in GVA with 4-5 levels max (lowest SPEX).
A few airlines also used to discount tkts via DI codes (kick-back) directly in billings:
face value 100 – discount 20 – to be remitted 80; practice which didn’t have much success in NL and turned into sporadic; SN was one of those btw.

The last years, special treatments (corporate, ethnic, seamen, T.O., groups, consolidation, etc.) turned into net or even net-net (all possible rebates and commissions discounted in the fare to be issued) for (internal) transparency and appropriate access.
Yield management is ruling and automatic access in booking class is dictated by price effectively in face value. Almost the whole alphabet is nowadays used to accommodate all possible booking class and related fare ranges.
Moreover, net revenue is the key word since, when it comes to common-rated interlineability in alliance environment.

Btw, Agency commission is disappearing and service-fee is charged to the client.
I’m sorry, but the chance that you pay more than the reported fare is much higher than the other way round (which is close to nihil).

Some back-ends, bonus or incentive on targets still exist of course and may vary (0 to 4-5% in practice) according to sliding scale performance, but this is considered (correctly) part of “distribution costs”, the pain in the A** of all Airlines.

My conclusion, or better my belief, is that the figs are reliable (marginal discrepancy tolerable) and workable. Of course skepticism is allowed and criticism is often constructive.

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 18 Jun 2005, 16:31

Rayman wrote:I’m sorry, but the chance that you pay more than the reported fare is much higher than the other way round (which is close to nihil).

Holy Rayman, if somebody paid more than the reported fare, that difference does not go to the airline.

Rayman · Post by **Rayman** » 18 Jun 2005, 17:39

SN30952 wrote:
Rayman wrote:I’m sorry, but the chance that you pay more than the reported fare is much higher than the other way round (which is close to nihil).
Holy Rayman, if somebody paid more than the reported fare, that difference does not go to the airline.

I never stated the contrary.
The paying more is related to service fee distribution apply. That's their mark-up because there's not a lot fishing anymore more from the airline.

Still the reported fare is what the airline will and want to receive and that's what you read in in the figs.

Btw, thanks for the Elevation without going through Beatification first, you're too generous.

Advisor · Post by **Advisor** » 20 Jun 2005, 12:02

fftopic: But Important.

http://www.sebi.gov.in/dp/jetairfinal.pdf

http://content.icicidirect.com/ULFiles/ ... 121049.asp

brakes_78 · Post by **brakes_78** » 20 Jun 2005, 15:42

blackhawk wrote:Let's give them free publicity

Hello Blackhawk, r u with 9W or an airline fan or a BRU fan

Ozzie1969 · Post by **Ozzie1969** » 20 Jun 2005, 16:28

Do Jet Airways have any other destinations which they might add to their schedule?

Rayman · Post by **Rayman** » 24 Jun 2005, 01:56

BOM-BRU-NYC postponed to second week of August.

http://inhome.rediff.com/money/2005/jun/23jet.htm

DannyVDB · Post by **DannyVDB** » 26 Jun 2005, 09:07

Hi,

When they would arrive with their first flight to Brussels, isn't the plane welcomed then by the fire brigade or is this only done on particular occasions?

Would like to see it when it comes to Brussels the first time ...

Danny

Zorba · Post by **Zorba** » 26 Jun 2005, 09:45

I think it's a big chance this will happen Danny. Will be just a question where exactly they will do it