Air France signed for 6 firm 787?

MrAirbus · Post by **MrAirbus** » 23 Jun 2005, 20:07

Check this out:

On "Air France" entry in Wikipedia, the fleet section writes:

On 22 February <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_22>
2005<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005>Air France placed a firm order
for 4 further Boeing 777-300ER aircraft,
adding to 10 previously ordered (4 delivered). The airline had previously
ordered 18 Boeing 777-200ERs and signed a firm contract on 17
February<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_17>2005 for 6 Boeing
787 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787>-8 aircraft (with options on a
further 6). (ref: Air International, April 2005)

Is this true?

SpottingEHBK · Post by **SpottingEHBK** » 23 Jun 2005, 20:41

As far I know:

NO

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 23 Jun 2005, 23:55

Ah ah ah, you made me laugh, really

.

Seb.

bits44 · Post by **bits44** » 24 Jun 2005, 07:02

current orders & deliveries,

There are six unidentified 787 customer orders on the order bank????

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/ord ... iew+Report

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 24 Jun 2005, 10:10

I would say "No waY", those whole order does not make any sense.

- Why would AF order the B787 in such small quantity in the first place?
- Why would they want to replace their A332's already (those aircraft are fairly young, aren't they)?
- And last but not least, why would AF keep those news for themselves (it would have been big news if AF announced it)?

I guess it is some kind of typo by Wikepedia, because it just does not make any sense.

Andries · Post by **Andries** » 24 Jun 2005, 10:53

B744skipper wrote: - Why would AF order the B787 in such small quantity in the first place?

That 's the main reason why I don't believe it. If they would order the 787, they would order more than 6 ...

B744skipper wrote: - Why would they want to replace their A332's already (those aircraft are fairly young, aren't they)?

Their oldest AF A330 was built and delivered in 2001, so replacing those is not for the near future.

According to my JP 2004, they have 14 A330-200's and 1 to be delivered in 2006. And they also have another 6 A330-300 on order ... So i don't see them allready ordering replacements ...

B744skipper wrote: - And last but not least, why would AF keep those news for themselves (it would have been big news if AF announced it)?

I am not talking about AF here, but some airlines do it to secure a deal with Airbus. Or they keep the Airbus order quiet to secure another deal with Boeing. Aviation has become more something of a strategic game than simple business ...

Greetz,

Andries

SR89 · Post by **SR89** » 24 Jun 2005, 16:10

Okey dokey,

As the wiki. website is an open-content site, I've deleted this non-sense reference to the 787.

GianSqualo · Post by **GianSqualo** » 24 Jun 2005, 16:13

I was under the impressiosn the unidentified 787's were destined for LOT?

Personally I cant see AF placing such a small order for an aircraft of the 787's type.

Regards

Giancarlo

:cool2:

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 24 Jun 2005, 17:21

Current AF fleet is as follow:

HorsePower wrote:AIR FRANCE: 254 (20 JUN 2005) SKYTEAM MEMBER
(100% AF-KLM Group subsidiary)
Wide Bodies: 92

- 16 Boeing B747-400 (395 seats NEW 433: -/40/393)
F-GITA 474: 17/57/400
- 2 Boeing B747-300 (508 seats)
- 2 Boeing B747-200 SUD (508 seats)
- 10 Boeing B777-300ER (310 seats: 8/67/235)
- 25 Boeing B777-200ER (270 seats: 12/56/202 NEW 250: 8/49/193)

- 16 Airbus A340-300X (252 seats NEW 272: 36/236)
- 5 Airbus A340-300 (252 seats NEW 272: 36/236) 30/261...
- 16 Airbus A330-200 (211 seats: 6/42/163 NEW 219: 40/179)

Narrow Bodies: 148

- 13 Airbus A321-200 (188/206 seats)
- 55 Airbus A320-200 (159/172 seats)
- 12 Airbus A320-100 (172 seats)
- 40 Airbus A319-100 (138/142 seats)
- 4 Airbus A319-100ER/CJ (82 seats: 28/54)
- 1 Airbus A319-100LR/CJ (82 seats: 28/54) op. by Aero Services
- 9 Airbus A318-100 (123 seats)
- 14 Boeing B737-500 (104 seats: 16/88 112/134 seats)

Freighters: 14

- 5 Boeing B747-400ER F (max payload: 112.7t)
- 5 Boeing B747-200 F (max payload: 108t)
- 3 Boeing B747-200 SF (max payload: 102t)
- 1 Airbus A300-600 F operated by Islandsflug

in 2010, AF fleet will be as follow:

My cristal ball wrote:AIR FRANCE: 257 (2010) SKYTEAM MEMBER
(100% AF-KLM Group subsidiary)
Wide Bodies: 100

- 5 Airbus A380-800 (538 seats)
- 13 Boeing B747-400 (433 seats: -/40/393 or 474 seats: 17/57/400)
- 20 Boeing B777-300ER (310 seats: 8/67/235 or 472 seats)
- 25 Boeing B777-200ER (270 seats: 12/56/202 NEW 250: 8/49/193)

- 16 Airbus A340-300X (272 seats: 36/236)
- 5 Airbus A340-300 (272 seats: 36/236 or 30/261)
- 16 Airbus A330-200 (219 seats: 40/179)

Narrow Bodies: 144

- 13 Airbus A321-200 (188/206 seats)
- 55 Airbus A320-200 (159/172 seats)
- 12 Airbus A320-100 (172 seats)
- 40 Airbus A319-100 (138/142 seats)
- 5 Airbus A319-100ER/CJ (82 seats: 28/54)
- 19 Airbus A318-100 (123 seats)

Freighters: 13

- 5 Boeing B747-400ER F (max payload: 112.7t)
- 3 Boeing B747-400 SF (max payload: 110t)
- 5 Boeing B777-200LR F (max payload: 101t)

On order:
-5 A380-800
On option:
-4 A380
-6 B777-300ER
-3 B777-200LR F
-6 A318-100

These numbers are here to give a tendancy, it means they are almost accurate

Sorry, no place for A350 nor B787 yet

. I think the 6 undisclosed B787s come from LO.

Regards

Seb.

A380-800 · Post by **A380-800** » 25 Jun 2005, 21:36

Thanks, HorsePower. Good overview for their current fleet and the
outlook in the future. You are right, there is currently no room for
the B787 and the A350.

rgds,

A380-800

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 26 Oct 2005, 21:16

The question remains:

Who is the customer for these 6 B787-8s ?

Seb.

MSYYZ · Post by **MSYYZ** » 26 Oct 2005, 22:48

Thanks a lot Horse Power for the AF fleet overview ..

N.B: Please thank your crystal ball for me..

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 26 Oct 2005, 23:36

Well, it needs slight modifications :

AIR FRANCE: 256 (2010) SKYTEAM MEMBER
(100% AF-KLM Group subsidiary)
Wide Bodies: 99

- 5 Airbus A380-800 (538 seats)
- 13 Boeing B747-400 (433 seats: 40J/393Y or 474 seats: 17J/57Y+/400Y)
- 7 Boeing B777-300ER (472 seats: 14J/36Y+/422Y)
- 13 Boeing B777-300ER (310 seats: 8F/67J/235Y)
- 25 Boeing B777-200ER (270 seats: 12/56/202 NEW 250: 8/49/193)

- 15 Airbus A340-300X (272 seats: 36/236)
- 5 Airbus A340-300 (272 seats: 36/236 or 30/261)
- 16 Airbus A330-200 (219 seats: 40/179)

Narrow Bodies: 144

- 13 Airbus A321-200 (188/206 seats)
- 55 Airbus A320-200 (159/172 seats)
- 12 Airbus A320-100 (172 seats)
- 40 Airbus A319-100 (138/142 seats)
- 5 Airbus A319-100ER/CJ (82 seats: 28J/54Y)
- 1 Airbus A319-100LR/CJ (82 seats: 28J/54Y) op. by Aero Services
- 18 Airbus A318-100 (123Y seats)

Freighters: 13

- 5 Boeing B747-400ER F (max payload: 112.7t)
- 3 Boeing B747-400 SF (max payload: 110t)
- 5 Boeing B777-200LR F (max payload: 103t)

On order:
-5 A380-800
On option:
-4 A380
-6 B777-300ER
-3 B777-200LR F
-7 A318-100

These numbers are here to give a tendancy, it means they are almost accurate

I expect at least one more B77W to replace the A343 that crashed in YYZ. Also the load factors are currently very high. Still no word about any B787, but who knows...

Subsidiary Régional CEA firmed the 6 ERJ-190LRs they ordered in June (+6 more on option). The first one will arrive on February 2007. They will progressively replace the 6 Saab 2000s who are currently on operating lease. I don't think more A318s will be ordered, or at least not for the main line. More second hand F100s could be expected instead.

Regards

Seb.

CX · Post by CX » 27 Oct 2005, 10:13

I just want to off topic a bit and ask maybe a stupid question...

Why would European airlines NOT support Airbus? I mean so many Euro governments are giving aids to Airbus, so shouldn't most of the european airlines have a majority of Airbus' in their fleet?

Humberside · Post by **Humberside** » 27 Oct 2005, 11:29

CX wrote:Why would European airlines NOT support Airbus? I mean so many Euro governments are giving aids to Airbus, so shouldn't most of the european airlines have a majority of Airbus' in their fleet?

No, since many are privately owned. While it is good PR to be seen to be supporting planes with parts made in their country, they have to be focused on getting the best deal for shareholders, be that buying Airbus and/or Boeing planes

kiwiandrew · Post by **kiwiandrew** » 28 Oct 2005, 11:51

CX wrote:I just want to off topic a bit and ask maybe a stupid question...

Why would European airlines NOT support Airbus? I mean so many Euro governments are giving aids to Airbus, so shouldn't most of the european airlines have a majority of Airbus' in their fleet?

Hi CX

firstly , there is no such thing as a silly question - how else are you supposed to get answers .

secondly , there was a time when your point was true , but leaving chauvinism aside , there is no longer such a thing as a "european " plane or an "american" one - both manufacturers source components worldwide - eg Boeing parts may be fabricated in Japan , Italy , France , Australia amongst others , likewise Airbus parts may come from Canada , USA , Australia - fortunately this means that ( most ) airlines can now get on with the business of selecting the aircraft that they think will do the job best rather than keeping their government happy

AirbusA350 · Post by **AirbusA350** » 29 Oct 2005, 02:25

To my knowledge AF never ordered the 787 and I don't see a purpose for this airplane in their fleet. In any case, this might be an unidentified ordered perhaps placed by KL, but I seriously doubt it, first it needs AF's approval and AF will not hesitate to announce any important orders to the public opinion.

Don't forget Wikipedia is enhanced by volunteers, who sometimes lack in information about a topic.

AirbusA350 · Post by **AirbusA350** » 29 Oct 2005, 02:37

CX wrote:I just want to off topic a bit and ask maybe a stupid question...

Why would European airlines NOT support Airbus? I mean so many Euro governments are giving aids to Airbus, so shouldn't most of the european airlines have a majority of Airbus' in their fleet?

Take LO for example, most of the talk centered on assumptions that the decision is going to be onesided and Airbus was a certain winner. How did it turn out? Everyone knows that. LO choose the 787 because they deemed that the airplane met their demands.