Brussels Airlines in 2021

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lumumba
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Joined: 04 Sep 2003, 00:00
Location: brussels Europe

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by lumumba »

Deejay wrote: 26 Aug 2021, 17:33 Did somebody take notice to the fact that you now have to pay to change your seat also at check-in online ?

Until now, if you wanted a specific seat at booking, you had to pay for certain "special seats", but now ALL the seats are only accessible at an extra charge.

is this acceptable for a "network airline" ? to me it seems SN is turning "low cost" even more,

what a bad marketing move: seating is the most important aspect for business travelers to be able to exit the plane quickly.... and those travellers will not get this "upgrade" reimbursed by their company (mostly) ....
I think the contrary for business travelers the 20€ difference is not important and so you can choose your seat easily because the tourist is not paying and doesn't care .
At least I like it that way in fact that was one of the advantages you had with Ryanair in my opinion .

Another point the last 2 flights I had with Brussels Airlines where excellent in all matters.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

oldblueeyes
Posts: 117
Joined: 13 Apr 2020, 12:44

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by oldblueeyes »

Deejay wrote: 26 Aug 2021, 17:33 Did somebody take notice to the fact that you now have to pay to change your seat also at check-in online ?

Until now, if you wanted a specific seat at booking, you had to pay for certain "special seats", but now ALL the seats are only accessible at an extra charge.

is this acceptable for a "network airline" ? to me it seems SN is turning "low cost" even more,

what a bad marketing move: seating is the most important aspect for business travelers to be able to exit the plane quickly.... and those travellers will not get this "upgrade" reimbursed by their company (mostly) ....
Well, is Brussels a real network airline?

The local market context is dominated by LCC airlines flying from CRL with pressure on yields and communicated basic prices for the booking masks.
The long haul itself serves price sensitive markets in emerging economies.
The DNA of the company is - speaking fairly - Virgin Express and not Sabena.

And last but not least, if we are benchmarking eg IAG and how they position their brands, they have eg. Aer Lingus positioned as value airline offering a hybrid product below a highly visible legacy such as BA and a low coster such as Vueling or maybe Air Europa.

On the long run there nothing bad on having a market positioning realistic to what the company is and the environment where it is challenged to earn money.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by Conti764 »

oldblueeyes wrote: 06 Sep 2021, 20:09 Well, is Brussels a real network airline?

The local market context is dominated by LCC airlines flying from CRL with pressure on yields and communicated basic prices for the booking masks.
The long haul itself serves price sensitive markets in emerging economies.
The DNA of the company is - speaking fairly - Virgin Express and not Sabena.
Out of curiosity, what exactly do you mean with 'the market context is dominated by LCC airlines flying from CRL'?

oldblueeyes
Posts: 117
Joined: 13 Apr 2020, 12:44

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by oldblueeyes »

Well, very simple.
Brussels as a market /agglomeration etc. is a low yield market. Starting from the fact that it operates two airports even as one would haven been enough, that CRL has 25% share of the market and it the home base of LCCs etc.
Even at its home airport, Brussels has a market share of 1/3 only, or if we add the CRL pax it covers only a quarter of the market.
It is not the classic, dominant premium airline market environment KLM has at AMS, for example so the money has to be generated in a different way.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by Conti764 »

Imho AMS isn't necessarily a higher yield market than Brussels. It's higher profile comes mainly from KL's vast network and the cooperation coming from it. KL/DL have quite a unique thing going on at AMS.

BRU's handicap is SN's weakness since it's formation, in a time when aviation in Europe changed.

CRL is a (succesful!) economic project from the Walloon government, eating away from BRU's cake. I realize it's kind of a stretch, but add CRL's 8 million and the 7 million BRU lost after Sabena's bankruptcy pax to BRU's 26 million and they'd have had around 40 million pax in 2019. It's a stretch but theoretically it would be a comparable situation to AMS, albeit smaller.

So all in all AMS mainly takes advantage from KL's strong and vast network and its cooperation with DL. But apart from that, I can't see how Amsterdam is a higher yielding market than Brussels. I'd even say Amsterdam is a lower yield market due to it's tourism which dwarfs Brussels.

BRU just missed out due to Sabena's issues, and SN's weakness after, and LH's lack of interest after the exit of Mayrhuber.

Stij
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Location: Belgium

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by Stij »

Conti764 wrote: 08 Sep 2021, 22:47 ...
CRL is a (succesful!) economic project from the Walloon government, eating away from BRU's cake.
...
Would it still be a succes if the annual subisides / market distortion wouldn't be there?

Stijn

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by Conti764 »

Stij wrote: 09 Sep 2021, 09:36
Conti764 wrote: 08 Sep 2021, 22:47 ...
CRL is a (succesful!) economic project from the Walloon government, eating away from BRU's cake.
...
Would it still be a succes if the annual subisides / market distortion wouldn't be there?

Stijn
Probably not (?) but given the objectives set it has proven a succes.

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Airbus330lover
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Location: Rixensart

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by Airbus330lover »

Don't forget .... they started a long time ago ... searching for expansion....
In this time... (before one of the crisis) no slot available in BRU...

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by Flanker2 »

I think that SN is ripe for a sale and that this is what LH will try to do. The crisis is far from over and airlines are getting in deeper and deeper troubles.
Suffices to see the SN fares for the coming weeks to see that they' re desperate to sell seats at any price.

Summer is over and the appetite for travel is gone, this is a general phenomenon.
Overall yields were horrible over the summer, load factors decent, but now the latter are collapsing as well, across the board.

SN may have been close to break even in July/August, but from here they will see red unless they cut back deep.

So I expect to see LH set up SN for a sale this winter, to the highest bidder, whomever is willing to take over SN's debt.
I wouldn't be shocked if they also try to sell OS.

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by nordikcam »

Flanker2 wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 14:27 I think that SN is ripe for a sale and that this is what LH will try to do. The crisis is far from over and airlines are getting in deeper and deeper troubles.
Suffices to see the SN fares for the coming weeks to see that they' re desperate to sell seats at any price.

Summer is over and the appetite for travel is gone, this is a general phenomenon.
Overall yields were horrible over the summer, load factors decent, but now the latter are collapsing as well, across the board.

SN may have been close to break even in July/August, but from here they will see red unless they cut back deep.

So I expect to see LH set up SN for a sale this winter, to the highest bidder, whomever is willing to take over SN's debt.
I wouldn't be shocked if they also try to sell OS.
...and buying a part of ITA ???

Lux_avi
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Joined: 09 Apr 2021, 18:09

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by Lux_avi »

Flanker2 wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 14:27
Summer is over and the appetite for travel is gone, this is a general phenomenon.
Overall yields were horrible over the summer, load factors decent, but now the latter are collapsing as well, across the board.
Completely incorrect.
Appetite for travel is not gone at all, on the contrary.

Yields were extremely good this summer. And it's continuing in the after season.

HappyFA
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Joined: 13 Aug 2020, 14:19

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by HappyFA »

Lux_avi wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 15:23
Flanker2 wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 14:27
Summer is over and the appetite for travel is gone, this is a general phenomenon.
Overall yields were horrible over the summer, load factors decent, but now the latter are collapsing as well, across the board.
Completely incorrect.
Appetite for travel is not gone at all, on the contrary.

Yields were extremely good this summer. And it's continuing in the after season.
Absolutly correct. I don’t know where he get it from that it is all descending and even that the loadfactors are descending. I did a completly full house today. As usual in winter the programs change and for those in avation will know that this year summer was for late bookers. And they expect the Same for winter. Yes, BA will Need to adapt their program to the Need of the costumer But the Numbers are not bad at this moment. And to be honest I expect even more increase next summer. The Need for vacation and getting away is high. But people decide at last moment because of all the colour codes and rules.

Matt
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Joined: 14 Nov 2018, 09:20

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by Matt »

HappyFA wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 16:46
Lux_avi wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 15:23
Flanker2 wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 14:27
Summer is over and the appetite for travel is gone, this is a general phenomenon.
Overall yields were horrible over the summer, load factors decent, but now the latter are collapsing as well, across the board.
Completely incorrect.
Appetite for travel is not gone at all, on the contrary.

Yields were extremely good this summer. And it's continuing in the after season.
Absolutly correct. I don’t know where he get it from
I haven't been taking this guy seriously anymore since a few months. ( possibly even more than a year ) The fact that he still didn't receive a ban is, to me, a shock. A lot of people even left this forum because of him. ( including me, I am still lurking tough ) Don't give any attention to him, or just ignore him. The fake news will get worse otherwise.

Also: for people interested in the LH group fleet, the google site if back up:

https://sites.google.com/view/europeana ... /dlh/lhdlh

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Airbus330lover
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by Airbus330lover »

Flanker Flanker2...is a big specialist
Remember the confusion between 2 airports in Kin

Is on my ignore list... but if anyone answers....

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by sn26567 »

All opinions are welcome, as long as you discuss the ideas and not the messengers.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by Conti764 »

Flanker2 wrote: 12 Sep 2021, 14:27 I think that SN is ripe for a sale and that this is what LH will try to do. The crisis is far from over and airlines are getting in deeper and deeper troubles.
Suffices to see the SN fares for the coming weeks to see that they' re desperate to sell seats at any price.

Summer is over and the appetite for travel is gone, this is a general phenomenon.
Overall yields were horrible over the summer, load factors decent, but now the latter are collapsing as well, across the board.

SN may have been close to break even in July/August, but from here they will see red unless they cut back deep.

So I expect to see LH set up SN for a sale this winter, to the highest bidder, whomever is willing to take over SN's debt.
I wouldn't be shocked if they also try to sell OS.
SN's cash cow isn't exactly seasonal. If they can limit costs across the entire portfolio this winter, I wouldn't be surprised if SN, relatively spoken, will (temporarily) be the best (or least bad) performing carrier within the group.

oldblueeyes
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Joined: 13 Apr 2020, 12:44

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by oldblueeyes »

Just to put things into a more general context. LH seems to aim expansion.
There is fresh private capital injected aiming to pay back governmental aids ar corporate level, limiting the freedom to act.
It is rumored that in some countries eg Portugal the state is not happy at all with choosing Brasilian investors in the last privatization round for the national airline.
Tactically, Eurowings is aiming for the first time new bases outside its home markets there were local carriers were disappearing or are significantly weaker - Prague and last rumors : Stockholm.
And this in a market that is still not as much consolidated as the US one on local/ let's call them short haul flights.

So why should be LH interested to give up the Belgian market after being very patient for one and a half decades?

longwings
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Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 03:51

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by longwings »

oldblueeyes wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 14:42 So why should be LH interested to give up the Belgian market after being very patient for one and a half decades?
No idea whether LH plans to give up on SN - no insider info.
However how "patient" LH has been or how much they may have invested in the past does not matter (look up "sunk costs"). Only future profits matter. LH will stay in the Belgian market until they see an opportunity for higher future profits elsewhere.

Making future investments to avoid “losing” investments already made is an emotional decision, not a financial one (aka sunk cost fallacy). Shareholders fire managers that make emotional decisions.

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by Flanker2 »

I don't know why some of you are shocked by my suggestion that LH may sell SN.
The industry is in dire straits and whenever this happens, consolidation (M&A) happens.
If anything, I can see LH selling SN because SN could be a desirable purchase target.

If anything, such a sale would be SN saving LH's butt.

Factors that would motivate LH to sell:
-Covid-19 is not gone yet and yields and load factors are bad going forward. SN is dumping tickets at any price they can find a buyer. It's not because Belgian politicians want to give you the illusion that covid is gone, that it is gone. Wait a few weeks and we'll be talking about lockdowns again.
-SN's financial results were not stellar in very good times, but LH had the luxury of sitting on billions of profits and keep SN as a strategic branch.
-LH is losing money and they are in survival mode, as any other airline in Europe. When your ship is sinking, you have to make choices. Do you save the befriended neighbor or the wife and children?

Other factors that may result in a sale:
-Capital markets are flooded with cash, thanks to excessive money printing. Airline groups are toast but there are many funds and financial entities sitting on mountains of cheap cash who are looking to make a return on that cash. Many are looking for emerging markets exposure, and SN can offer that while maintaining the security of being established in a stable country.
This could result in an attractive offer.


So I feel that SN is ripe for a sale and I would not be shocked if something like this happens soon. It could be in a month, it could be in 6 months, maybe a year.


If you follow aviation news, you would know that Wizz Air made a move on Easyjet just the other day. There's a lot of risk-taking going on, much of it is a t lunatic levels.
If you look at how overvalued some companies like Tesla are, I think that someone could make LH an offer for SN that LH can't refuse.



https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ising-push


If you are a SN fan, don't feel insulted.
For once, I'm saying that SN could be worth something, that it could be a desirable purchase target.

oldblueeyes
Posts: 117
Joined: 13 Apr 2020, 12:44

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2021

Post by oldblueeyes »

LH just raised fresh money trough a capital increase - so rather no need for cash, getting out of EU limitations on expanding etc.

Furthermore they are expanding organically the Eurowings bases to Sweden and Czech.

So assuming that they would be unhappy with SN ( and yes, they would have a lot of reasons from the past), they would act differently - no reason why not to have a Eurowings base in BRU - let's have a dozen of A320 focused on the cash cow routes and the rest of SN remains a regional airline and let's move the African feeders via FRA or MUC and there will be nothing left for SN to operate - the A330 are anyhow under a LH master leasing agreement so they could do this pretty quickly.

No reason to do anything yet, especially as some state aid linked obligations as still in place.

I'd rather expect LH to look after TAP - at least the Portuguese government won't be against it after Brazilian majority ownership failed ( and this would be indeed a threat for BRU if LIS would be expanded as main African hub) and i won't be surprised to see them doing a tactical acquisition, such as Volotea.

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