Flying again ... what about you?

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DannyVDB
Posts: 869
Joined: 12 Aug 2003, 00:00

Flying again ... what about you?

Post by DannyVDB »

Hi all,

This week I had my first (business) trip since 02/2020 :) :( ...

Was to Nice, to go to Genoa (I like to drive by car between Nice/Genoa). Flights to and from Nice were quite full (I estimate >80%), even two/four business passengers. But mostly tourists. Coming back, also several transfer passengers (NY, London) ...

Everything was well organised, friendly staff, decent inflight service (I don't need food myself since I have access to the lounge anyway). Spray for hands, disinfectant wipe, ... Then, surprisingly they distributed a French PLF as well (which our travel office said was not possible): collected on the plane. Also the way of boarding and un-boarding was very efficient.

Overall, nice flight even though I forgot many of the habits over this 1.5 year without flying (forgot to take off my belt, and out my pocket money ...) :D

Another great surprise this week was from M&M: I would have lost my Senator status end of 02/2022, but they now offer an additional year. This year I will still have flights to Split/Dubrovnik, Toronto/Saint-Lucia, Riga and maybe a few others, but not enough to collect > 100.000 miles (although they double status miles these days). Next year will see more travel with new projects: Europe, a lot, and then Saint Lucia, Dubai, Singapore and other far destinations (not yet fixed) ...

So good perspectives and I hope I can help in a very modest way the sector which saw a lot of 'black snow'.

At the end I like to travel/fly even though for sure travel will be less then before because overall people/organisations are very careful and some travel has been rightfully replaced by remote business meetings.

What about you? Are you traveling again. When yes, when not? Criteria for me are: travel when you need to see/meet many people/organisations; activities where interaction is very important (e.g. teaching technical topics); very intense meetings (for example this week I had 10h of meetings on Wednesday :o ); ... What are your criteria?

Cheers,
Danny

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sn26567
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Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
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Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by sn26567 »

Hi Danny,

Great to see you flying again. The industry needs people like you to be thriving. Keep the spirit.

On my side, I am retired, thus flying only for leisure (and pleasure!). I started flying again in May and I have already logged 3 trips abroad: Santa Cruz de La Palma, Rhodes, Dubrovnik (that's one per month) and a 4th upcoming next week: Riga.

Yes, flying again is fun!
André
ex Sabena #26567

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Airbus330lover
Posts: 846
Joined: 21 Jul 2005, 00:00
Location: Rixensart

Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by Airbus330lover »

First flight 7 days ago.... a pleasure. last flight was in 2/2020

Lux_avi
Posts: 65
Joined: 09 Apr 2021, 18:09

Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by Lux_avi »

Never stopped flying actually (leisure only)... except during the first lockdown.

Luxembourg luckily always understood the following regarding COVID;

- Being in an aircraft is a safe environment
- Quarantines are useless if the virus is already in circulation
- Red, yellow, orange, pink, green, black maps never caused quarantines nor mandatory testing upon return
- Testing *BEFORE* coming back to the country is much smarter than asking for a "mandatory" test AFTER the return...
- That only your own behavior abroad puts you at risk, NOT *only* the fact of being abroad all by itself

And all this with only 1 health minister :!:
... who just confirmed all this in the news again very recently.

DannyVDB
Posts: 869
Joined: 12 Aug 2003, 00:00

Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by DannyVDB »

In fact I did not fly for leisure either over the past 18 months.

But the trip to Split is together with my wife, so she also made the switch now to not wait longer and to travel. We also plan to have in April next year a trip with the full family (8 of which 2 small kids) :D

I totally agree that it is not the flight where there are risks, but rather depends on what you do at your destination.

We will be in Brela (close to Split) for a 1-week holiday 'on our mountain': sleeping, walking, cooking/eating, reading, and more sleeping ;) ... We are not the ones seeking contact with a lot of other people, dancing or celebrating. The week after I travel further to Dubrovnik for our summer school (one of our projects) and there it will be little bit more tricky since my Balkan colleagues are like the French: hugging, kissing, touching and celebrating (they organised in the past even Karaoke events :( ) ...

I am not sure how the long distance travelling will happen: getting permission (from my employer) will be harder - which is related to insurance issues; but also the travel routes are less dense or connections only sparsely available (e.g. to go to Saint Lucia a stop via the US is not yet possible and through Toronto the offer is limited, while I want to avoid London Gatwick). So still many challenges. Not yet clear what the prices will be (although for business travel this is less important, we need flexibility in any case).

Cheers,
Danny

Passenger
Posts: 7085
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by Passenger »

Lux_avi wrote: 21 Aug 2021, 17:41 Luxembourg luckily always understood the following regarding COVID;
...
- Being in an aircraft is a safe environment
...
Actually, an aircraft is a high Covid-19 risk place. No social distancing at all, sometimes for several hours. Mouth-nose-masks are not compulsary when one eats or drinks. As if one doesn't breathe then.

The miracle solution, onboard airconditioning with HEPA filters, is useless against the Covid-19 virus. Sure, they clean the air from bacteria and from hazardous content from sigarettes. Airline say that their HEPA's have a coverage of 99,95% MPPS. Nice. But to eliminate Covid-19, filters have to clean beyond 0.3 micron. Only medical filters cleaning up to 0.01 micron (99,9995% MPPS) eliminate the Covid-19 virus particles.

So to answer the question: as long as being double-vaccinated isn't the general rule, I abstain from flying.

Lux_avi
Posts: 65
Joined: 09 Apr 2021, 18:09

Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by Lux_avi »

Passenger wrote: 22 Aug 2021, 11:34
Lux_avi wrote: 21 Aug 2021, 17:41 Luxembourg luckily always understood the following regarding COVID;
...
- Being in an aircraft is a safe environment
...
Actually, an aircraft is a high Covid-19 risk place. No social distancing at all, sometimes for several hours. Mouth-nose-masks are not compulsary when one eats or drinks. As if one doesn't breathe then.
Nobody said there is 0 risk. It is still a safe environment, as per many studies performed by manufacturers, states, airlines & more.
But, if Passenger says so...

Homo Aeroportus
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007, 18:28
Location: 2300NM due South of North Pole

Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

Lux_avi wrote: 21 Aug 2021, 17:41 Never stopped flying actually (leisure only)... except during the first lockdown.

Luxembourg luckily always understood the following regarding COVID;

- Being in an aircraft is a safe environment
- Quarantines are useless if the virus is already in circulation
- Red, yellow, orange, pink, green, black maps never caused quarantines nor mandatory testing upon return
- Testing *BEFORE* coming back to the country is much smarter than asking for a "mandatory" test AFTER the return...
- That only your own behavior abroad puts you at risk, NOT *only* the fact of being abroad all by itself

And all this with only 1 health minister :!:
... who just confirmed all this in the news again very recently.

Luxembourg : 12 Points.

coronavirus-data-explorer (10).png

H.A.

Passenger
Posts: 7085
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by Passenger »

Lux_avi wrote: 22 Aug 2021, 11:43
Passenger wrote: 22 Aug 2021, 11:34
Lux_avi wrote: 21 Aug 2021, 17:41 Luxembourg luckily always understood the following regarding COVID;
...
- Being in an aircraft is a safe environment
...
Actually, an aircraft is a high Covid-19 risk place. No social distancing at all, sometimes for several hours. Mouth-nose-masks are not compulsary when one eats or drinks. As if one doesn't breathe then.
Nobody said there is 0 risk. It is still a safe environment, as per many studies performed by manufacturers, states, airlines & more.
But, if Passenger says so...
Aircraft are no safe environment. For every study stating so, there is one that proofs that passengers with Covid-19 have contaminated other passengers.

Airlines tell that the air in the cabin is Covid-19 proof: "Airlines for Europe (A4E), representing the interests of Europe’s 16 largest airlines and airline groups and flying 720 million passengers per year, today reiterated that air travel remains one of the safest modes of transport during a public health crisis, with a very low risk of virus transmission onboard... The majority of commercial aircraft are equipped with high-efficiency particulate air (HEPA) filters, which were also in use during the SARS epidemic. These advanced filters continuously clean the air onboard - which is then replaced on average every three minutes. As a result, the air in the cabin is comparable with the sterile environment of a hospital operating theatre.."
(See https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/air- ... -covid-19/

Well, Lux_avi, if you would do just a little bit of research on those HEPA filters, instead of replying "if Passenger says so...", you would understand how they have mislead you.

Actually, this is not something I have looked up for just now: it's something from a study that I recieved back in in June 2020. Basic principle:
Airline HEPA filters are Category ISO 29463 35H (DIN EN 1822 H13).
Hospital HEPA filters are Category ISO 29463 45H (DIN EN 1822 H14).

The difference between H13 and H14 is 0.3 micron versus 0.01 micron. 99,95% versus 99,9995% Bacteria verus viruses. Airline filters H13 eliminate bacteria but do not eliminate the Covid-19 virus. Only hospital filters HEPA H14 eliminate the Covid-19 virus.

Lux_avi
Posts: 65
Joined: 09 Apr 2021, 18:09

Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by Lux_avi »

Awesome, Passenger. Awesome.
Those who think the earth is flat also made their research on the internet...great for them.

I work for an airline, my partner works for another one.
Not a single cluster found out since March 2020. Even with efficient contact tracing techniques.

But you're right for a thing; you're more exposed to covid in a plane than all alone behind your computer screen.
Stick to your beautiful numbers, I'll stick to reality.

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sn26567
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Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
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Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by sn26567 »

Gentlemen, can we please play the ball and leave the players alone?
André
ex Sabena #26567

Lux_avi
Posts: 65
Joined: 09 Apr 2021, 18:09

Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by Lux_avi »

sn26567 wrote: 23 Aug 2021, 11:40 Gentlemen, can we please play the ball and leave the players alone?
Any problem here? I don't see any.

Passenger
Posts: 7085
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by Passenger »

Let me clear some things out.

On 28th July 2020, Bart (Aviation24.be) has published a news story on the homepage here: “Covid-19 contaminated couple boards Ryanair flight in Manchester and infects several people upon return in Berlin
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ryan ... in-berlin/

This cross-contamination was then discussed in the general Covid-19 topic n° 2, with our Flanker (who else) posting: “…TUI and Brussels Airlines are overselling their HEPA filters…” I then replied to that remark with a general “…they are overselling HEPA filters and cleaning indeed…”

The same day, I wrote an e-mail to Bart (Aviation24.be) that I had recieved a confidential memo from someone with more details about those HEPA filters. And I told Bart that the cross-contamination on that FR-flight was no surprise because the HEPA filters on aircraft are only grade H13, and not H14. I had promised my source not to mention the study, for obvious reasons.

Airlines and airports are trying their upmost to make flying as safe as possible. But they can't make it 100% safe.

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cathay belgium
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Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

Be real guys,HEPA filters or not...
Flying isn't safe , just like buses, restaurants, cafés , ..

I'll just know this and take the risk, ...
I'm vaccinated and guess still young enough to not get hurt badly if...

Living is not safe, HEPA or not..
...
I'll just don't want stop living ;)
So I fly...

I'm more troubled about Paper work,tests, reshedullings, refund if any...

Covid scared me more financially and time investing then medical !!

It is just another trick to get you paying for things and get taxes up...

IMHO


CXB
New types flown 2021 .. //

ezis_bis
Posts: 250
Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 17:11
Location: Tallinn, EU

Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by ezis_bis »

cathay belgium wrote: 23 Aug 2021, 23:02 It is just another trick to get you paying for things and get taxes up...

IMHO
I really don't think it's about all of those, and after having had covid myself, I would still fear the disease more than the financial impact.

This being said, I just need to move around, and I also enjoy it.
Less than before, the facemasks are horrible, but not stopping me. I'm also fully vaccinated, and am very annoyed with the testing even for vaccinated people. But I understand why, especially when going to less vaccinated areas. It's a small price to pay (litterally, when you need to pay €40 and compare that to the ticket/cost of the entire trip, it's very acceptable)

I hope things turn out more reasonable very soon, but it starts to become smoother and smoother, lounges are open again, plf controls go easier, I just need to get to the US very soon

MHG
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Location: near Mannheim, Germany (MHG/EDFM)
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Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by MHG »

Just returned from my first trip since February 2020 ...

Booked a package holiday for the first time in my life. (withTUI in this case)
Usually I organise my travels completely by myself but decided for an - almost - fully organized trip this time.

Due to the actual circumstances I had looked around for a while to find a destination that would not cause an uncalculable risk for me and Mrs.MHG to be subject for qarantine upon return ... (we´re both fully vaccinated)

So, I went for Funchal, Madeira.
I didn´t care what airline we were put on since I expected it to be a hassle to fly under these circumstances anyway.
We were booked on X3 (TUIfly Germany) FRA-FNC-FRA.
Just didn´t expect they were very much on Ryanair level in almost all aspects (minus the annoying advertising and rude/"just so capable" ground/inflight crews at FR).

The flights were on time (on the return leg even 25 mins early due to strong tailwind) and pretty much average run of the mill B737-800 experiences you get with a 189 seat configuration despite both flights were not fully booked (outbound:148/189 inbound:137/189)
So, nothing to write home about aside from the really tight seating but we survived it. :roll:

Interesting were nevertheless a few "procedures" onboard:
1) Passengers were asked to "preferably" abstain from using the air vents :o - as if that would really make a difference to aerosol circulation in the cabin.
2) Disembarkation was interesting and I thought this procedure should be carried on even after Covid-times are over: passengers were ordered to remain seated until their seat row was called in sequence from front to rear :)
This made for a very civilised ond organised disembarking (should be implemented for boarding,too...)
3) Upon departure from FNC cabin was sprayed with an aerosol ("by Portuguese law") - this is a bit weird to me as if at all I´d expect something like that to be done before arrival at a destination.

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sn26567
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Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by sn26567 »

MHG wrote: 08 Sep 2021, 13:49
2) Disembarkation was interesting and I thought this procedure should be carried on even after Covid-times are over: passengers were ordered to remain seated until their seat row was called in sequence from front to rear :)
This made for a very civilised ond organised disembarking (should be implemented for boarding,too...)
This seems to be standard at TUI: also in Belgium, as I experienced several times.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Lux_avi
Posts: 65
Joined: 09 Apr 2021, 18:09

Re: Flying again ... what about you?

Post by Lux_avi »

https://reports.nlr.nl/bitstream/handle ... sAllowed=y

Finally an interesting study about the risk of getting Covid19 in an airplane.

Now I'm curious about similar studies in bars, restaurants, busses, trains etc...
I guess I'll feel safe enough in an airplane :!:

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