Germanwings A320 crash in France

[cnc]

Our forum "experts" are on the loose again
FML

How exactly do you kill a flight attendance while seated with your barehands within the time that is required to turn a doorknob?

since when do you have to kill someone to disable them? and even if the FA for some reason is not a 50kg girl but a 150kg tall guy an unexpected blow to the head can knock them out, let them fight the g-forces is an other easy way...

[sean1982]

Filip van Rossem is first and foremost a Union member.
Answer my question instead of starting your pathetic Ryanair fight because it has NOTHING to do with this.

[mad_fab]

Guys, don't you think you're overthinking all this a little bit?
"what if, what if", if we put an armed marshall in every cockpit, what if the marshall go rogue?
There's always "a way", nothing is foolproof, and quite frankly I'm a little bit shocked that some of the informations released are on the edge of the medical confidentiality.

The problem here is about trust and human factor, I'm not sure there's a real 'quick-fix' for this, no armored door, flight attendant, you name it, could prevent this kind of event 100% of the time...

[RTM]

I don't think that the prevention against cases like this is to be done in the air.
Off coarse implementing the requirement of having two crew members in the cockpit at all times is a good step in last line defence. With a second person in the cockpit, there is at least some chance in regaining control in case of a rogue pilot.

But most importantly, I think human factor policy's should be re-evaluated by airlines. Appearantly it is possible to escape detection when having serious mental issues.

The employee should be trained to come clean with his employer in case of emotional or mental issues in an early stage. Long before reaching the suicidal level anyway.
The employer should create an enviroment where the employee feels confident in that doing so will not harm his career. And in fact can count on his employer to help him through the tough times on an individual level.

Not allways easy, and a sensative subject. I know. But it's pure huan factors management.

Note that I refer to employee's and employers, as I do think it should not only apply to flight crew and airlines. But if start anywhere, start there...

[Boeing767copilot]

Not to believe what this guy spouting

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/video ... =1.2285617
and
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/video ... =1.2285617

[Inquirer]

I honestly think there is something to be said for both cases, really.

A second person adds social supervision and thus another small extra layer of safety against a kamikaze pilot, but it also introduces a 3rd person in the procedure, which undeniably means it also brings along the theoretical chance of a kamikaze supervisor then: It's simply replacing one risk by another IMHO, but given the focus on a kamikaze pilot nowadays, I fully understand public demand for that risk to be reduced, even if that adds another risk which seems unreal at present.

In fact, thinking about it: that's exactly what the door did too: it solved one pertinent problem, yet it obviously created another big one the industry is now trying to fix!

In the end, when we step into a taxi, a bus or a train, we also put our live into the hand of a single person, although I admit I will be thinking about it for a minute on my next flight, on Monday too. Just like I was scared to fly right after 9/11. Those things fade out with time.

[mad_fab]

The employee should be trained to come clean with his employer in case of emotional or mental issues in an early stage. Long before reaching the suicidal level anyway.
The employer should create an enviroment where the employee feels confident in that doing so will not harm his career. And in fact can count on his employer to help him through the tough times on an individual level.

Spot on!

[mad_fab]

In fact, thinking about it: that's exactly what the door did too, didn't it? It solved one problem, yet it obviously created another big one were now trying to fix!

Agreed, that's the problem when you are trying to fix a breach, sometimes you just create another one (you can apply this to security in general).
Imagine if, in a few days/months/years a rogue FA locked in with the PF during a "toilet break" incapacitate the PF (using anything, first class cutlery, boiled water, I don't know, there's a lot of possibility even if it's -VERY- unlikely) and crash the plane, you'll read a lot of "see? your knee-jerk reaction of putting FAs in the cockpit lead to the death of xxxx people". And even if it's true, it doesn't make this a wrong measure per se.

It reminds me of a security course where I was told something like "If there is a 1% chance that something will happen, there's 100% that it will happen one day" (that's not always true but you get the idea, right? )

Well, sometimes it's difficult/almost impossible to fix the problem itself, and then we have to accept a certain level of uncertainty.
In this case, to reduce that level, even if the "2 people in the cockpit" rule make sense, we should try to focus on the root of the problem: that person was facing a serious medical condition and shouldn't have been in the right seat.
But there will be an investigation that will -no doubt- investigate that part of the problem, and we just can't do that ourself because we are not psychiatrist (sorry if someone here is actually is ^^), and even a psychiatrist would need access to the medical records and a lot of other (medical) information that we would never understand because we're not qualified for.
But I'm confident in the fact that conclusions and security recommandations will come from the different experts, we just need to be patient

[teddybAIR]

"If there is a 1% chance that something will happen, there's 100% that it will happen one day" (that's not always true but you get the idea, right? )

I once heard a security expert say that when in aviation the chance of occurence of a defect/accident/incident is merely on in a million, it is bound to happen within a week

[FlightMate]

Agree with RTM.

What should be in place is a no-blame, no-fear work environment where pilots and other staff can report unfit without being afraid of the consequences.

How many times have I seen pilots flying when sick. Too many! Specially amongst young pilots (afraid of losing their job if reporting sick too often) and 'company men' (don't want to see a cancelled flight).
They're not doing their passengers any favour!

Depression is another kind of sickness. That Germanwings FO was probably too afraid of losing his license if he had reported his sickness.

[Crosswind]

Our forum "experts" are on the loose again
FML

How exactly do you kill a flight attendance while seated with your barehands within the time that is required to turn a doorknob?

There is no need to kill or disable anybody. Give me a maximum of 10 secs and story is over, unrecoverable. I'll not give you the "how to do list" because I think it can be considered illegal to share such info publically, but I can assure you that any pilot can break his aircraft at cruise level, even an Airbus, in a couple of seconds. I said seconds.

But why would do that in cruise instead of final or take-off phase where to kill everybody is even more easy ?

[crew1990]

Well, ok, still if they are two in the cockpit, it will dissuade the PIC to crash the aircraft, the presence of someone can change a lot.

[Crosswind]

Why a single in the cockpit would dissuade anyelse from doing crazy things with an aircraft since 150 seated right behind doesn't ?

Nah, if a pilot wants to, he will.

[Passenger]

Why a single in the cockpit would dissuade anyelse from doing crazy things with an aircraft since 150 seated right behind doesn't ?

Nah, if a pilot wants to, he will.

Few days ago, a trauma psychiatrist told on VRT Reyers Laat (same broadcast with Filip Van Rossem) that in case of an extreme emergency situation, every human being goes into self-defense modus. In case of a technical problem, a pilot then doens't think "I have to solve this problem because I'm responsible for 150 passengers", but "I have to solve this problem because I want to survive myself". However, the psychiatrist said, that also applies the oppositie way. The co-pilot was in such distress that he just did not thaught on the 149 other passengers onboard. The only he thing he wanted to solve was HIS own catastrophic problem, HIS own mental issue, HIS problems that would be solved with the suicide. Once he was in that modus, he wasn't considering the life of others nor the distress of his relatives - let alone the distress of the relatives of the passengers and other crew.

[Flyer777]

As Filip Van Rossem told last week "remove those doorlocks - i was flying with the door open..." - this was one of the most stupid things since 9/11. When a terrorist forces a flight attendant, with a coffee tray in the hand, to ring cockpit door, I am for 200% sure that the door will open in 1 second ! On the contrary, suppose crew is unconscious, due to cockpit smoke, and there is another Airbus captain among the passengers... what will be the scenario ?

[Acid-drop]

Don't forget we have no proof of anything.
Personally, i have many doubts about the suicide story, its all pure speculation based on noise for now.
I'm waiting for better.

[regi]

How exactly do you kill a flight attendance while seated with your barehands within the time that is required to turn a doorknob?

if you are trained in martial arts, this takes 0.5 to 2 seconds: hit in the troath, break neck.
Basic procedure for anybody who has done something in that field.
Tricks: "Oh Sean, can you look here , I dropped something ?"
So Sean looks down , is hit in the neck and than twisted his neck.
so utterly basic. Distraction, execution.

[OO-ITR]

I guess by now MOL's plan to introduce the 'one pilot on the flight deck' concept is indefinitely sent to fantasy land...

[Crosswind]

How exactly do you kill a flight attendance while seated with your barehands within the time that is required to turn a doorknob?

if you are trained in martial arts, this takes 0.5 to 2 seconds: hit in the troath, break neck.
Basic procedure for anybody who has done something in that field.
Tricks: "Oh Sean, can you look here , I dropped something ?"
So Sean looks down , is hit in the neck and than twisted his neck.
so utterly basic. Distraction, execution.

Guys, there is absolutely no NEEDS to hurt the accompanying crew member to make the aircraft doomed in a couple of seconds.

Just think about structural limitations in direct law of the rudder or the pitch elevator. Do you know why a 737 artificial feeling system of the elevator is so strong in manual flight at FL3.something ? Because if you put a full down input abruptly followed by a full up input - repeat if necessary -, you'll lose part of critical item of your magic plane in a finger clap. You want me to talk about the rudder, the flaps ?

Now what I agree is that a second people could save erratic, ponctual crazy decision from an unprepared or not so willing guy for a suicide or give more chance for a cockpit crew to be back sufficiently on time to save what it could still be... That's why I'm PRO this decision.

[Crosswind]

As Filip Van Rossem told last week "remove those doorlocks - i was flying with the door open..." - this was one of the most stupid things since 9/11. When a terrorist forces a flight attendant, with a coffee tray in the hand, to ring cockpit door, I am for 200% sure that the door will open in 1 second ! On the contrary, suppose crew is unconscious, due to cockpit smoke, and there is another Airbus captain among the passengers... what will be the scenario ?

About the first story, the true is that you cannot estimate what will be the reaction of a particular pilot at that moment. So many factors are to be taken into account... Yes, someone can open the door (stupidly) but another one will disregard what happen in his back, close his ears et dive to land asap. don't forget as well that we have been aware to never open the door in that situation...

The seconde one is so easy : a pilot knows how to enter the cockpit in case of all cockpit crew incap.
.