Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

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Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby Boeing767copilot » 28 Oct 2011, 16:20

Maybe disruption of flight operations Brussels Airlines caused by a flight attendants strike

http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail. ... 111028_113
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby airazurxtror » 28 Oct 2011, 16:57

http://www.lalibre.be/actu/belgique/art ... lines.html

Extracts :

The union common front of Brussels Airlines has filed a strike notice Friday. It expires in two weeks. Spontaneous actions could already take place next week.
The reason is, according to the unions, the planned Brussels Airlines flights to Egypt fot which current rostering systems must be adapted.
The discussion on this issue failed Friday.
The common front union nevertheless hopes to reach agreement in the coming days and avoid a strike. "The ball is in the camp of the direction," he said.
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby cnc » 28 Oct 2011, 17:03

yes luxury is something you get used to very quickly.
if the SN FA's would compare wages and hours with those from other belgian airlines they would back down.
also at the moment SN is in serious financial trouble :roll:
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby ExSabena » 28 Oct 2011, 19:27

I flew few years ago (after Sabena and Sobelair) for Thomas Cook Airlines and we had Brussels - Louxor - Hurghada - Brussels. I suppose Brussels Airlines staff want to stay at least 3 days in Egypt after a Brussels - Cairo ?
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby Flanker » 28 Oct 2011, 19:30

cnc wrote:yes luxury is something you get used to very quickly.
if the SN FA's would compare wages and hours with those from other belgian airlines they would back down.
also at the moment SN is in serious financial trouble


It's none of my business but it's very well known that SN's FA's have a low basic salary. I once saw one of them's duty rosters and believe me when I tell you that it's hard to have a life on such a roster.

I think that they deserve the payrise very much.
Agreeing to it and then taking it away for the sake of negotiations is too much fooling around. The management should dress up as stewards and try the job for a week, to understand how hard it is.
Also, it's 7% of what? 1150€ basic pay? 80€ per month gross/50€ net? If that isn't ridiculous enough...

The financial troubles are not the fault of the FA's. Management like to say that it's not their own fault either but that's an easy thing to say considering that even people lower in the food chain who don't have access to all the data have seen it coming with their "strategy". So I don't think that it's fair to mention the financial troubles and that staff should pay for the mistakes of the management. If the famous top 50 of the company all admit the mistakes that they've made and agree to temporarily work at the same wages as the FA's, then we can talk about the "financial troubles".

At SN, wages are low and rosters very tough across the board in all operational positions and people have generally accepted it because they love this company very much. If they do strike, I think that the FA's will be hurting more in their hearts than the management, that's how they are.

Staff costs and conditions are a huge burden for every airline. It's matter for tough negotiations especially in times like these. But I have never seen such understanding unions as at SN to the point where I often wonder who they really work for :D
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby airazurxtror » 28 Oct 2011, 21:07

Flanker wrote: So I don't think that it's fair to mention the financial troubles and that staff should pay for the mistakes of the management.

SN, wages are low and rosters very tough across the board in all operational positions and people have generally accepted it because they love this company very much.


People always pay for the mistakes of the management - fair or not fair, such is life !
As for people "loving" their company, same as "we are all a big family" or "we are all in the same boat" - I hope nobody still believe in such crap ?
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby cnc » 28 Oct 2011, 23:38

Flanker wrote:It's none of my business but it's very well known that SN's FA's have a low basic salary. I once saw one of them's duty rosters and believe me when I tell you that it's hard to have a life on such a roster.

compared to what? the old sabena days? sure...
the low basic salary is without flights btw so unless you don't fly for a whole month you earn much more.
don't get me wrong i do think they deserve it but so does ground staff, pilots,...
and about the duty roster... c'mon do you work in the aviation world? try to compare it with a roster from a JAF FA, a red cap from flightcare, a warehouse supervisor from swissport,...
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby Passenger » 29 Oct 2011, 01:02

Boeing767copilot wrote:Maybe disruption of flight operations Brussels Airlines caused by a flight attendants strike

http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail. ... 111028_113


Shame on you, De Standaard. There was a time, long long time ago, that the editor of this newspaper would refuse to publish such a rubbish article. People like Many Ruys would tell their junior journalists to go back to the street and get a reply from management or ownership in case of a labour conflict.
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby regi » 29 Oct 2011, 02:55

airazurxtror wrote:
Flanker wrote: So I don't think that it's fair to mention the financial troubles and that staff should pay for the mistakes of the management.

SN, wages are low and rosters very tough across the board in all operational positions and people have generally accepted it because they love this company very much.


People always pay for the mistakes of the management - fair or not fair, such is life !

In most cases, yes. But was it not the CEO of one of the largest airlines that was fired very recently?
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=m ... 15b2587341
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby Flanker » 29 Oct 2011, 03:31

cnc wrote:
Flanker wrote:It's none of my business but it's very well known that SN's FA's have a low basic salary. I once saw one of them's duty rosters and believe me when I tell you that it's hard to have a life on such a roster.

compared to what? the old sabena days? sure...
the low basic salary is without flights btw so unless you don't fly for a whole month you earn much more.
don't get me wrong i do think they deserve it but so does ground staff, pilots,...
and about the duty roster... c'mon do you work in the aviation world? try to compare it with a roster from a JAF FA, a red cap from flightcare, a warehouse supervisor from swissport,...


In comparison to any jobs.
There was a previous debate on this subject viewtopic.php?f=9&t=45095
The gross basic salaries mentioned were in the 1350's for full-time. For a single person in Belgium, this is barely 1000€ per month. If you pay rent in Brussels, what's going to be left for food?
Night stops and per diems somehow compensate a little but it doesn't change the fact that this is all quite close to minimum wage for a demanding job.

I don't think that Egypt is the real problem because they almost agreed on the rosters. The union metioned a problem in the fair repartition of the rosters and that there's only 2% of spare cabin crews full-time equivalents. This tends to create a problem when many go on sick leave. The unions won't sign off on Egypt until this matter is cleared.

http://aclvb-cgslb.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby SN1203 » 29 Oct 2011, 09:51

Night stops and per diems somehow compensate a little but it doesn't change the fact that this is all quite close to minimum wage for a demanding job.


I wonder if the unions would dare to post here how "little" these compensations are on average. It would be a serious eye-opener and stop the discussions on how 'poorly paid' SN's cabin crew would be according to the unions.

You already have to have a serious position within any company to beat the average net salary (including all compensations) of SN cabin crew.

In the press they'll always refer to the base salary of course, "forgetting" about all the other compensation systems for nightstops etc.
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby FlightMate » 29 Oct 2011, 10:47

Come on, the base salary is at an absolute low.
And it's what matters for pension / sickness / unemployment / leave

If b.air wants to consider allowances as a salary, then they should be liable for social security / taxes.
Can't have it both ways.
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby cnc » 29 Oct 2011, 11:34

they better not strike on monday and friday because i'm going to FCO :!:
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby SN1203 » 29 Oct 2011, 17:47

FlightMate wrote:Come on, the base salary is at an absolute low.
And it's what matters for pension / sickness / unemployment / leave

If b.air wants to consider allowances as a salary, then they should be liable for social security / taxes.
Can't have it both ways.


So raise the base salary and at the same time keep all the allowances and compensations? I think you also can't have it both ways... unless you see 3.500-4.000 EUR per month as a realistic salary, but in that case there won't be an airline anymore tomorrow. That's something you also better think about before going on strike.
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby shockcooling » 29 Oct 2011, 17:52

SN1203 wrote:
Night stops and per diems somehow compensate a little but it doesn't change the fact that this is all quite close to minimum wage for a demanding job.


I wonder if the unions would dare to post here how "little" these compensations are on average. It would be a serious eye-opener and stop the discussions on how 'poorly paid' SN's cabin crew would be according to the unions.

You already have to have a serious position within any company to beat the average net salary (including all compensations) of SN cabin crew.

In the press they'll always refer to the base salary of course, "forgetting" about all the other compensation systems for nightstops etc.


B*llshit. There are FA having between 1 until >10 nightstops per month. You CAN"t count allowances as part of your salary, as this not a fix income and doesn't help a lot when you're sick or go on pension. It's variable and can easily be less by the linkes of rostering dept. or management cutting back on night stops for example...
And please do not call it "compensations systems", where does this term come from? Otherwise we have to start calling company cars/laptops/mobile phones/... "compensations" aswell?
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby b.lufthansa » 29 Oct 2011, 20:51

shockcooling wrote:
SN1203 wrote:
Night stops and per diems somehow compensate a little but it doesn't change the fact that this is all quite close to minimum wage for a demanding job.


I wonder if the unions would dare to post here how "little" these compensations are on average. It would be a serious eye-opener and stop the discussions on how 'poorly paid' SN's cabin crew would be according to the unions.

You already have to have a serious position within any company to beat the average net salary (including all compensations) of SN cabin crew.

In the press they'll always refer to the base salary of course, "forgetting" about all the other compensation systems for nightstops etc.


B*llshit. There are FA having between 1 until >10 nightstops per month. You CAN"t count allowances as part of your salary, as this not a fix income and doesn't help a lot when you're sick or go on pension. It's variable and can easily be less by the linkes of rostering dept. or management cutting back on night stops for example...
And please do not call it "compensations systems", where does this term come from? Otherwise we have to start calling company cars/laptops/mobile phones/... "compensations" aswell?


The flight attendants salary is ok when: you have enough overnights/flying hours but have you ever considered pregnancy, retirement, chronic disease, cancer, broken leg, and so on and so on ?

Remember this article: viewtopic.php?p=250343#p250343 flight attendants get 1463,99 € gross, what is left after long illness is 60% of your gross salary: 878,39 €, when you have a long term illness, how much will you earn SN1203 ? Will you also have around 920€ when you retire ?
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby Passenger » 29 Oct 2011, 21:28

b.lufthansa wrote:Remember this article: viewtopic.php?p=250343#p250343 flight attendants get 1463,99 € gross, what is left after long illness is 60% of your gross salary: 878,39 €, when you have a long term illness, how much will you earn SN1203 ? Will you also have around 920€ when you retire ?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but after one month of illness, a minimum allowance applies: 34,48 Euro/day for a single, 40,21 Euro/day for a single with children, 50,25 Euro/day for a married with children.
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby Air Key West » 30 Oct 2011, 19:45

It seems that b.air managers make decisions without thinking of their implications. They are not the ones who would perform a return flight to Hurghada as pilot or flight attendant. They sit behind their desks in comfortable offices.
How do you feel after having been in an A319 or A320 for about five hours ? You want to get out. Let the crew get out, too, and take a well deserved rest.
I once flew with Thomas Cook to Hurghada and the air hostesses were sollicited practically nonstop by passengers, especially families with young children. They did not have time to rest. At the end of the return flight, they really looked exhausted. They had been in that plane for more than ten hours. I think this is close to inhuman working conditions. In addition, let's not forget that these flights start very often early in the morning, which means getting up in the middle of the night to report for work.
My feeling is that b.air employees and especially crew (flight deck + cabin) have been very patient and have shown a lot of good will when faced with an incompetent management. I understand their notice to strike.
In favor of quality air travel.
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby cnc » 30 Oct 2011, 20:06

Air Key West wrote:I once flew with Thomas Cook to Hurghada and the air hostesses were sollicited practically nonstop by passengers, especially families with young children. They did not have time to rest. At the end of the return flight, they really looked exhausted. They had been in that plane for more than ten hours. I think this is close to inhuman working conditions.

please don't try to make SN and FQ equal in work conditions. those at FQ are far more worse.
its unfair towards all other SN personel if the FA's will strike
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Postby sn26567 » 30 Oct 2011, 21:14

I understand that the problem with the SN flights to Egypt is that they are triangular (e.g. Brussels-Taba-Hurghada-Brussels), which leads to long working times. However, I don't understand where the problems are, if sufficient rest is given afterwards. I see that already now Jetairfly is also flying triangles between Brussels-Taba-Cairo-Brussels.
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