2010 Charleroi Airport (CRL) latest news

[RoMax]

More about possible long haul from CRL
http://www.lalibre.be/economie/actualit ... leroi.html

- SAVE seems very pro-active
- They understand the rail access is very important
- Discussion are in progress with hainan
- the terminal will grow : + 2 000 to 3 000 m2, +3 gates

no offence but what should hainan gain by moving to CRL? the lf would go down dramatically and what with the belly cargo?

lowcost longhaul (if it would ever happen) would be obvious for CRL

Hainan said some time ago that they are intressted in investing in CRL, but I don't think that means they will replace there flights to CRL. That would kill themself on their "most important" European destination.

[Acid-drop]

Who knows what can happen with the chineese.
We are still very far away from the potential of incomming tourists from China.

[mitsuo.namen]

hi,

New destination from CRL to Alger with JAF and OST to Malaga
Sorry but i only have a link in french....

http://www.pagtour.net/article-CP-Nouve ... -1641.html

[Acid-drop]

The walloon gov has finally decided about the train station : it will be an underground station linked to the Charleroi-Brussels lines. Total cost (estimation) 500 millions euro ... pretty much the same cost than the Liège-Guillemins station (437 millions). For info, the price of an A380 is 350 millions.

We can expect a huge delay like always ... probably 2020

[airazurxtror]

pretty much the same cost than the Liège-Guillemins station (437 millions).

Yes, but at the Guillemins, they have built only a new station; at CRL, they'll have to set the track from rather far away - Courcelles perhaps - and the station.

[LAGPanoramic]

The walloon gov has finally decided about the train station : it will be an underground station linked to the Charleroi-Brussels lines. Total cost (estimation) 500 millions euro ... pretty much the same cost than the Liège-Guillemins station (437 millions). For info, the price of an A380 is 350 millions.

We can expect a huge delay like always ... probably 2020

On the evening news of RTBF, they said that it is just the decision about the concept op the station, and an estimation of the budget, but that it is not decided from where the money would come, and thus no date of opening could be announced
But something else was strange on that report: they explained that people coming from Brussels had to go by train until Charleroi station and then taking the local TEC bus, what indeed isn't pretty efficient. But they never mentionned the existing coach line, who in my opinion isn't very comfortable, but isn't slower than what the train will be in the future (as coach line is direct while trains will stop at least in Nivelles and Braine l'Alleud)

[Stij]

But something else was strange on that report: they explained that people coming from Brussels had to go by train until Charleroi station and then taking the local TEC bus, what indeed isn't pretty efficient. But they never mentionned the existing coach line, who in my opinion isn't very comfortable, but isn't slower than what the train will be in the future (as coach line is direct while trains will stop at least in Nivelles and Braine l'Alleud)

That's because this railwaystation is not so much intended to improve the passengers live's but to keep the Charleroi area concrete industry happy!

Anyway, by 2020 the major boost of low cost will be loooong over (MOL himself predicts in 2 to 3 years) so if CRL grows by 30% in 2010, by 20% in 2011 and by 10% 2012, (growth normally declines gradually) the airport should handle a little bit less then 7 million passengers by the end of 2012. Probably by then everybody will ask himself "Is a 500 million railway link really neccesary? Won't a people mover from Courcelles do the trick as well?"

BTW, wouldn't the railway link cost then a multiple of what the airport itself costed? Does that sound logic? I don't know...

Cheers,

Stij

[danieln]

BTW, wouldn't the railway link cost then a multiple of what the airport itself costed? Does that sound logic? I don't know...

Cheers,

Stij

Not tot forget what a waste of money an expensive train station would be if Ryanair would ever decide to leave Charleroi...

[Megaman]

if Ryanair leaves Charleroi, others will be there to take their place. They have proven that a market exists.

€500 million does look expensive. Of course, you have to look at it as a long term investment and I don't know how they plan on depreciating it or what their return on investment will look like. I'm not sure the people mover is much cheaper on the long run (I don't know if a tram or monorail is much cheaper or even a network of busses for that matter).

[Acid-drop]

500 Millions does look expensive, but it's the same than the HST station in Liège or Antwerp : a bit part of the cost is not for the station itself but for the redisign of all track in and around the station, signalisation cabin, new road, bridges, tunnels ... The station for CRL isn't an exeption, they'll need to build new tracks to Luttre (it seems). The diabolo project for BRU was also long, expensive and complex.

[Stij]

if Ryanair leaves Charleroi, others will be there to take their place. They have proven that a market exists.

The same volume as FR? Who then? Not Easyjet or Air Berlin, they prefer to operate from main airports. And aren't the others a bit small? And Ryanair knows this!!! If FR leaves, the charter market is the only way out for CRL. But I don't expect them to leave, quite frankly, that's not the issue here.

€500 million does look expensive. Of course, you have to look at it as a long term investment and I don't know how they plan on depreciating it or what their return on investment will look like.

Let's depreciate over 20 years and estimate the cost to maintain the infrastructure at 1% of the investment (so not to actually "run" the train, just to maintain tracks, tunnels, bridges, signaling....)

25 million depreciation per year + 5 million maintenance per year = 30 million total cost per year

Now, let's estimate the number of pax using the train and estimate it at 50%. As most people working at the airport are supposed to be local, I don't think a lot of them will come by train from Brussels, so 3,5 million trainpax.

30 million total cost per year / 3,5 million passengers = +-8,57€/ per passenger, just for the extra infrastructure. And the current bus is just as fast and costs 13€...

I'm not sure the people mover is much cheaper on the long run (I don't know if a tram or monorail is much cheaper or even a network of busses for that matter).

I must admit I dont know a lot about monorails or trams or other people movers either, but when I follow the news in Brussels, trams are supposed to be a lot cheaper the subways, and I imagine a train is even more expensive to build then an overground subway.

Cheers,

Stij

[Acid-drop]

Guys, the bus has always been cheaper because they use the road for free. If you count infrastructure it's all different. This debate is nonsense, you would stop all rail development if you think like that.
Plus, you compare the price from Brussels only. What when you come from Ostende or Hasselt ?

[Stij]

Sure, public transport can only live with subsisdies, but how much?

The diabolo for BRU costs 300 million€ and probably attracks a little bit more pax then CRL and is located in a completely congested area (so there's a demand for a train).

If the CRL connection would cost "just" 100 million, build it! But 500million€ is a maybe a bit exagerated IMHO.

Cheers,

Stij

[airazurxtror]

According to "Le Soir" today, the airport will be connected to the SNCB line 140 Charleroi-Ottignies (and on to Brussels).
The new track should leave the line at Lodelinsart, go north, under the runway to the terminal, and on to join the present track just before the highway Charleroi-Namur.

[regi]

Isn't Charleroi that great city where against all advice a megolomanic subway annex tram system was built ( by BN Manage , now closed ) ?
It eventually was not constructed completely, some small changes were done to make it affordable.

So question:
is there no northern line coming close to the airport that can be extended a bit?

Answer: Yes
read this site ( in Dutch) and the last part about the unbelievable connection to the airport.
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9tro ... _Charleroi
In short: the connection will stop 1.5 km before the terminal because some objections of the railway organisation.

I bet I will take FLAK again by pro Walloon people. But guys, this is the truth. The line is there, it is ready !
It is no joy to read how Belgian tax money is wasted and chances for optimalisation of the airport + tramway network are left behind.

[Acid-drop]

that is very interesting.
Should be a journalist work as an annex to any article related to the new station.

Now, they may want to connect CRL to Brussels straight. It seems BRU have the exact same situation. They could have bring the tram but did an underground train station. any thoughts ?

[jan_olieslagers]

As a thought and nothing more: A train link to Brussels (or any other major railway hub), offering good connections, would be better than a local tram. We did agree CRL attracts precious little pax from/to Charleroi region, didn't we?

[Stij]

that is very interesting.
Should be a journalist work as an annex to any article related to the new station.

Now, they may want to connect CRL to Brussels straight. It seems BRU have the exact same situation. They could have bring the tram but did an underground train station. any thoughts ?

Some facts:

- CRL isn't in a congested zone.
- People only really switch to public transport when traffic is congested.
- CRL still "only" handles 4 million €

So the question is:

"Does tax payers money have to be spent on a 500 million € project that we don't actually need in the short term for a traffic that depends for the major part on one carrier that could leave if we don't give them what they want?"

The answer?

Liège got a big expensive Calatrava Railway Station, Mons is supposed to get one, and guess what: the Van Cau clan wants one too.

Cheers,

Stij

[danieln]

So once the train station is finished, you can have a 40 minute train ride from Brussels South to Brussels South ?!

[regi]

no no, it should be simplier and cheaper. But that is not what the decision makers want. Because their clan members are all sitting on the board of the big concrete barons. ( very strange remark because it were those same concrete barons who pushed the Charleroi subway system through the throat of the Belgian taxpayer )

It would be easy and cheap ( in comparison ) to extend the tramway to the airport terminal.
If I am not wrong, all the land up to 1.5 km of the terminal has been bought and allocated already 20 years ago.
So, extend it a bit, install the equipment and make a non stop connection to CRL railway station ( 10 minutes ride because of no stops, traffic lights, inner sections , every 15 minutes, just like the airport city express in real Brussels , but with a much cheaper product: a tram )
From CRL main railway station, you should than be able to get a decent train ride to BRU.
A revamp of the CRL railway station stands completely besides of this. The cost of this has nothing to do with the avaiation activities of CRL airport.

Cost? I guess 15-20 million euro, vehicles not included.

Not only for the passengers of LCC's: It would be great for workers at the airport and the Caterpillar workers nearby as well.