Long haul plans at Brussels Airport by 2011

[AirDupont]

Finnair takes away PAX I think for their Asian routes...They have good fares and a good network into Asia

[JOVAN]

Finally I can give the future plans about long haul operations at Brussels Airport. Goal is to serve those destinations by 2011. Some of them will arrive/depart at late noon or evening.

Destination - Airline
Boston American Airlines (small hub)
Dallas American Airlines (small hub)
Vancouver Air Transat
Dubai Emirates
Bangkok China Airlines
Shanghai Hainan Airlines (European hub)
Singapore Singapore Airlines
Tokyo JAL or ANA


I can't give more information at this moment. The long haul part is a part of a bigger issue about the plans at Brussels Airport. From time to time I can give info AFTER the officials released this info. So I hope that everyone understand this. But to me, it looks good.

Can hardly believe all this will happen:
--> AA will slowly be replaced by UA; will certainly not start anything new at BRU
--> BOSTON: maybe by SN, but not in the first 2-3 years
--> VANCOUVER: Transat cannot even fill a plane to Toronto, let alone Vancouver; we already have 9W onthis destination;
--> DXB: unbelievable that EK has not yet opened this high potential line to BRU, what is BRU doing to keep them away ??
--> BKK yes, but by TG
--> SHANGHAI: Hainan will first try to make PEK more successful;
--> SINGAPORE: have choosen for AMS as Benelux base, won't change to or add BRU;
--> TYO: let's hope one day; best choice would be ANA;

[Prevangor]

An inernet promotion company (see link below) suggests that the following destinations would have a significant traffic potential from Brussels:

Boston
Dallas/Fort Worth
Detroit
Houston
Los Angeles
Miami
San Francisco
Vancouver
Sao Paulo

Johannesburg
Dubai
Bangkok
Hong Kong
Kuala Lumpur
Seoul
Shanghai
Singapore
Tokyo

Glasgow
Belfast
Cork
Nantes
Reykjavik
St Petersburg
Gdansk
Santiago di Compostella
Bratislava
Skopje

http://www.therouteshop.com/brussels-airport/

(scroll down for the reasons of this potential - I know it is somewhat over-enthusiastic, but thought it might be a pleasant read for BRU fans)

[outofafrica]

Wauw great site

Seoul...remembers me of Asiana B744 pax service to BRU so many years ago.

Message to SN/LH: Start your shopping before it is too late !!!

[BrightCedars]

Seoul...remembers me of Asiana B744 pax service to BRU so many years ago.

Don't be over-enthusiastic, it was a B744 Combi and was coming like twice a week only, replacing or being replaced by a B763ER at some point during the rather short life of this service that was stopping en-route in VIE.
I agree with you it was a nice sighting.

That list is Brussels Airport's wish list based on the size of airports around the world more than that of actual traffic data if you ask me. I don't see a need to rush to open these routes unless there is a rock solid foundation and business case for them, otherwise they will do what others have before: come and go (MH, NH, SQ, TG, ...). Actually, was there ever NH metal at BRU or was it always a code-share with SN207/208?

[Vinnie-Winnie]

The only figures worthwile looking at are that brussels airport has: ie original origin/ final destination of passengers using Brussels Airport. Those are the figures that Bru airport uses to try to convince Long haul airlines to serve Brussels airport. That's why you'll never see a bru delegation go to Australia for example!

Anything else is wishful thinking! That website mentioned above is just crap! No sense of reality no market analysis behind it nothing. and sucking your thumb and pulling out a city is certainly useless as well!

Shame atlantis cannot share more info of that kind with us. Unfortunately it is highly confidential....

[Atlantis]

Anything else is wishful thinking! That website mentioned above is just crap! No sense of reality no market analysis behind it nothing. and sucking your thumb and pulling out a city is certainly useless as well!

I was not happy to see the link to that website too. I don't know who is the owner but it's just an overview of what we can find on other sites too. Like you said: no market analysis.
Besides some destinations were already served by SN and are now ceased. Other destinations are seasonal. So no correct info.

Shame atlantis cannot share more info of that kind with us. Unfortunately it is highly confidential....

Like I said several times, I don't like rumours with no background. The info I give on this forum is 100% reliable. That's why I can give the list on page 1. From the moment we will have more specific info I can put it on this forum. It's a choice: do you want gossip or real info? My choice is very clear.

More info, specific for some destinations and carriers, within some weeks.

PS: don't shoot on who is always give very usefull info on this forum but shoot on who is always very, very negative about Brussels Airport, Brussels Airlines, etc. I never saw them posting one single useful information about aviation in general.

[unilitha]

WAW ! I have to say that survey is impressive ...by its complete unconsistency ! With all due respect to the company which did that I don't expect 20% of those destinations to be linked to BRU in the next 5 years. Seriously Miami, Houston, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Dallas, HKG, PVG, BKK,... ? They just added all the remaining main cities and capital that were not listed on the BRU airport schedule !

Even with the stronger participation of LH or Jet ....I mean SFO is really next to LAX for instance.....so I can't imagine them to fill in their planes....

Otherwise it is great to see AA doesn't seem to want to get out of BRU, it would be a missed carrier here !

Even though I wish all this happens someday, I think we all should stay realistic and hope for what Atlantis said to become reality soon.

[Vinnie-Winnie]

Shame atlantis cannot share more info of that kind with us. Unfortunately it is highly confidential....

Like I said several times, I don't like rumours with no background. The info I give on this forum is 100% reliable. That's why I can give the list on page 1. From the moment we will have more specific info I can put it on this forum. It's a choice: do you want gossip or real info? My choice is very clear.

Don't get me wrong here! I totally understand your position and I agree with it. There are rumours and rumours some coming from people who have judgement some others by people whose english is so poor that you wonder whether they are actually expressing a wish or if they have heard something. Having been for more than 3 years on this forum I can certainly distinguish both.

More info, specific for some destinations and carriers, within some weeks.

Looking forward to it!

PS: don't shoot on who is always give very usefull info on this forum but shoot on who is always very, very negative about Brussels Airport, Brussels Airlines, etc. I never saw them posting one single useful information about aviation in general.

On the contrary I praise him

Anyway unless A carrier from oneworld decides to actively get involved at BRU which I personallydoubt I don't see AA expanding here. Nor do I see a market for Thailand which has if my memory is correct not even been served by a charter airline until very recently.

[tolipanebas]

After casting doubts over the prospect of AA setting up a mini-hub in BRU, given the fact these flights would all become terminator flights once SN joins STAR alliance, it seems it is now the long term plans of Hainan which are casting doubt over BRU's 'wish list'.

Hainan is known to be working on a direct flight from Belgium to PVG, thus so far so good for the long term vision of BRU, but in an article in the newspaper 'De Standaard', Hainan is now mentioned as one of the 3 remaining contenders to run the airport of CRL. If they win the bid, they've said to want to relocate all their flights from BRU to CRL asap...

I truely wonder how 'long term' the long term vision of BRU really is, because the long term future for at least 2 key airlines mentioned here (AA and Hainan) definitely doesn't seem to lay in BRU... If any of these routes materialize after all, I wouldn't be surprised to see them being closed/relocated within a year.

I am getting a very strong feeling the entire shortlist is based on a study made at the beginning of this year, and as so often in aviation, a year is a very long time in which a lot can change... so much even it isn't worth the paper it is printed on any longer so it seems!

Definitely time to spend some more money on yet another glossy study in which the focus will have to be more on the STAR alliance airlines, if it is to have any credibility at all!

[Atlantis]

Its a good idea of Tolipanebas to discuss the move of some African routes ex-FRA to Brussels Airport by Lufthansa.

Some are unlikely because of no network of Brussels Airlines like: Cape Town, Johannesburg, Caïro. And because of the strong presence of AFKL and BA.

Other destinations who are not in the list due to low O&D: Kilimanjaro.

Maybe two destinations in the East: Karthoum and Mombasa (was already a destination of SN)
LH is serving Karthoum 4/week with an A333. LH is serving Mombasa 3/week with a B763. But serving Mombasa 3/week ex-BRU is maybe too much.

I think that we will have then 4 destinations in the West with a real chance to put them to Brussels Airport:

Lagos: LH is serving this destination daily with an A343 and A346
Accra: LH is serving this destination daily with an A343 and A346
Abuja: LH is serving this destination 3/week with an A333
Malabo: LH is serving this destination 3/week with an A333.

When you add those 4 destinations to Brussels Airport means that Brussels Airlines cover West-Africa.

I think that LH will transfer two a/c to Brussels Airport: A333 and A343.

[taz001]

just out of curiousity, what terms are we talking about? I know the topic says plans by 2011, but i can imagine that the LH/SN plans may start a bit sooner.... Any idea if we are talking about weeks, months, a year or more?

[JOVAN]

After casting doubts over the prospect of AA setting up a mini-hub in BRU, given the fact these flights would all become terminator flights once SN joins STAR alliance, it seems it is now the long term plans of Hainan which are casting doubt over BRU's 'wish list'.

I truly wonder how 'long term' the long term vision of BRU really is, because the long term future for at least 2 key airlines mentioned here (AA and Hainan) definitely doesn't seem to lay in BRU... If any of these routes materialize after all, I wouldn't be surprised to see them being closed/relocated within a year.

I am getting a very strong feeling the entire shortlist is based on a study made at the beginning of this year, and as so often in aviation, a year is a very long time in which a lot can change... so much even it isn't worth the paper it is printed on any longer so it seems!

Definitely time to spend some more money on yet another glossy study in which the focus will have to be more on the STAR alliance airlines, if it is to have any credibility at all!

Indeed: as usual BRU and its consultants seem to be one or 2 battles behind.

A new and possitive element anyway is the "abolition" of the aviation tax.
If the Dutch government sticks to their stupid tax, it is the time for BRU to really "work" the Dutch market.
(Bus connections to EDH, Breda, Maastricht; Thalys or TGV stop at BRU,...) and convince companies like SQ, CX, ....EK, MK to use BRU as their Benelux-base.

[Atlantis]

just out of curiousity, what terms are we talking about? I know the topic says plans by 2011, but i can imagine that the LH/SN plans may start a bit sooner.... Any idea if we are talking about weeks, months, a year or more?

The long haul plans has to be set by 2011. The move of LH to move some of their African destinations to Brussels Airport is new. There we speak in terms of months.

[Atlantis]

Indeed: as usual BRU and its consultants seem to be one or 2 battles behind.

A new and possitive element anyway is the "abolition" of the aviation tax.
If the Dutch government sticks to their stupid tax, it is the time for BRU to really "work" the Dutch market.
(Bus connections to EDH, Breda, Maastricht; Thalys or TGV stop at BRU,...) and convince companies like SQ, CX, ....EK, MK to use BRU as their Benelux-base.

It seems that you are two battles behind.

Since more then a year there are several daily bus connections from The Netherlands to Brussels Airport.
As you maybe also know we have the Diabolo-project.

And when you read my first post of this topic then you will see that I have mentionned SQ and EK in the list. But you said in your post on 5 nov in this topic: "I can hardly believe all this will happen". And you have the guts to say that Brussels Airport has no vision. I think that you don't want that Brussels Airport will grow in the future. First you are fully against the airport and when they announce to attract some nice carriers then you are again contra.

Think twice before posting all nonsens.

Sorry moderators but things has to be said.

Maybe we can get back to the topic please and discuss the move of LH African destinations to Brussels Airport.

[Conti764]

I think that we will have then 4 destinations in the West with a real chance to put them to Brussels Airport:

Lagos: LH is serving this destination daily with an A343 and A346
Accra: LH is serving this destination daily with an A343 and A346
Abuja: LH is serving this destination 3/week with an A333
Malabo: LH is serving this destination 3/week with an A333.

When you add those 4 destinations to Brussels Airport means that Brussels Airlines cover West-Africa.

I think that LH will transfer two a/c to Brussels Airport: A333 and A343.

Does your last sentence mean they will transfer two aircraft types or only two aircraft? Because you need at least 4 A343 to operate the flights to Lagos and Accra because it seems a little too much to cut two A346 flights a day.

[JOVAN]

Indeed: as usual BRU and its consultants seem to be one or 2 battles behind.

A new and possitive element anyway is the "abolition" of the aviation tax.
If the Dutch government sticks to their stupid tax, it is the time for BRU to really "work" the Dutch market.
(Bus connections to EDH, Breda, Maastricht; Thalys or TGV stop at BRU,...) and convince companies like SQ, CX, ....EK, MK to use BRU as their Benelux-base.

It seems that you are two battles behind.

Since more then a year there are several daily bus connections from The Netherlands to Brussels Airport.
As you maybe also know we have the Diabolo-project.

And when you read my first post of this topic then you will see that I have mentionned SQ and EK in the list. But you said in your post on 5 nov in this topic: "I can hardly believe all this will happen". And you have the guts to say that Brussels Airport has no vision. I think that you don't want that Brussels Airport will grow in the future. First you are fully against the airport and when they announce to attract some nice carriers then you are again contra.

Think twice before posting all nonsens.

Sorry moderators but things has to be said.

Maybe we can get back to the topic please and discuss the move of LH African destinations to Brussels Airport.

Your assertivity is of Olympic level indeed, dear Atlantis.

I really hope BRU will someday be an important airport, taking benefit of one of the most densily populated and industrialized catchment areas in the world.

But the dynamism and professionalism they show is deplorable.

Can you give me a survey of the bus connections to the Netherlands ?
Where can we find it on BRU's website ??

And when will the Diabolo-project be ready???

And will TGV, Thalys or AlbatrosHiSpeed stop there ?

Fact and figures please Atlantis. And please control your emotions.
This is only a Forum of aviation-lovers.

Take it easy

[Vinnie-Winnie]

Indeed: as usual BRU and its consultants seem to be one or 2 battles behind.

But the dynamism and professionalism they show is deplorable.

Instead of criticising people's skills you don't even know off you may well want to acquire the same skills that you think these people lack. And who are you exactly to judge a team of people that are doing a pretty good job given the circumstances? Give me a break don't you think they merit credit for bringing Jet Airways to Bru for example?

A new and possitive element anyway is the "abolition" of the aviation tax.
If the Dutch government sticks to their stupid tax, it is the time for BRU to really "work" the Dutch market..

1) We're talking of a 25 euro tax right? who do you think that is going to put off: high yielding business pax or low yielding leisure pax?
2) Who does Bru airport and airlines want to attract: Low yield or high yield pax?

Do the maths you'll clearly see that the dutch market is of limited interest. It isn't the interesting pax bonanza you claim it is. Associate the cost of diverting trains to Bru (Won't be free)+ the fact that KLM is part of the consortium running the Albatros benelux trains and you will see that yes it is an idea but not one which is easily implemented.

If you want pax and more destinations, you need to establish a hub like BA. why do you think they want a 3rd runway? To expand their short haul flights, free up the 2 main runways, bring more pax in therefore increase number of flights.

That's why they succesfully attracted jet airways, and that's why they are now working on attracting LH's africa network. LH said that they would offload some of their pax to BRU. Could easily see Brussels airlines with LH's financial muscle acquiring some more aircraft, which could be used to fly to Beirut, Algiers and others.

For long haul destinations I guess LH will try gradually to see how it is working for them to move some flights to BRU. No need to rush here. At the moment i'm sure that they are doing a full study of BRU's potential, as an OD and a hub airport.

At the end of the day it is the airlines that decide which routes they fly, not the airport. If demand ore yields aren't there, they just aren't. Bru in my opinion will always remain LH's 4th or 5th airport, used as a hub to provide connectivity for mostly low yielding passengers from their alliance.

[LX-LGX]

I really hope BRU will someday be an important airport, taking benefit of one of the most densily populated and industrialized catchment areas in the world. But the dynamism and professionalism they show is deplorable.

The answer to this highly professional statement (sic) is given by Ms Kerrie Mather, CEO from Macquarie Airports: “Brussels Airport continues to deliver outstanding performance, with almost 20% EBITDA growth in the first quarter of 2008 when compared with the pcp. This result was driven by solid revenue growth across all key businesses – aeronautical, retail and car parking businesses – as well as continuing strong cost control..."

Well Jovan, BRU does this with "deplorable dynamism and professionalism" (your words). Imagine what would happen if the Aussies would finally listen to you, and if they would introduce dynamism and professionalism in BRU. By the way, the EBITDA-result for BRU for the first quarter of 2008 is +43,4 mio euro (revenue +10,6%, operating costs +2,3%). That's 43,400,000 euro's!

The punctuality report for BRU is also better as what one could expect from amateurs who run an airport in the "most densily populated and industrialized catchment areas in the world" (your words): "... Ms Mather, CEO Macquarie Airports, also noted that Brussels Airport was recognised as the most punctual European airport in 2007, as reported by the Association of European Airlines which monitors punctuality across the major European airports. This is the second year in a row that Brussels has been recognised in this manner..."

Number of pax:
1999 : 20,0 mio
2000 : 21,6
2001 : 19,7
2002 : 14,4 (= year after bankruptcy of Sabena and 9/11)
2003 : 15,2
2004 : 15,6
2005 : 16,1
2006 : 16,6
2007 : 17,8

Fact and figures please Atlantis. And please control your emotions.
This is only a Forum of aviation-lovers.

Luchtzak-member Atlantis is not only just an aviation-lover: he's also an aviation professional. I'm sure most of us appreciate his input.

- - -

Sources:
http://www.brusselsairport.be/nl/about- ... statistics
http://www.macquarie.com.au/au/map/news ... 300408.pdf

[Ducatibiker]

Nice numbers, nice profit...for an airport becoming more and more a shopping center.
Last week I saw an old lady who went inside the new 'wine shop' and tried to get out by the other door, thinking it was the only way to the gates in the Shengen Terminal. I had to help her through the detour in the bar to reach her gate. I quite share the feeling that this airport could be better managed.
As for the punctuality, I have seen many flights cancelled...and I wonder where those go in the statistics.