Brussels Airlines in 2022

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Atlantis »

But anyway, Brussels Airlines should be more brave too. They should straight tell LH that if SN is the African leader of the group, order then also the efficient planes for us to expand there. If KF can have the A330Neo to fly to South Africa, SN had to ask this already years ago. But with LH management in SN is rather impossible. Only 3 new A320 for short haul
Long haul is bringing in the money, not short haul

Lux_avi
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Lux_avi »

Atlantis wrote: 18 Jul 2022, 17:28 Forget about FR. With all current cases with them and many strikes, it will be unlikely as they see Belgium/unions as unreliable.
No they don't. Belgium being one of the most important market for them.
Unions are pretty much everywhere in the EU...

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longwings
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by longwings »

Conti764 wrote: 18 Jul 2022, 21:17Quite unrealistic imho... We saw what happened in 2002, airlines flooded BRU to channel local pax on their own flights from neighbouring airports, international flights will crumble, Africa ops will go to CDG, FRA or AMS. Some small TATL operations will remain with UA flying smaller equipment,...
The gap was not long enough for the market to fully adjust. Over time, either AF/KL or Lufthansa would have started new flights out of BRU to capture part of the O/D going to rivals. A multi-hub strategy similar to what Australian and US carriers (and to a smaller scale Lufthansa) operate is much more efficient than several single hub strategies, if only because a plane can fly FRA-BRU-MAD-MUC if that is the most optimal allocation of resources. It is legally possible today, however it can only be incrementally implemented while BRU is still a hub for the local carrier. It needs to be possible on a large scale to be financially significant, and support long-haul flights to key destinations.
Conti764 wrote: 18 Jul 2022, 21:17Loosing your home carrier is a disaster for an airport like BRU...
The socio-economic impact for the local workforce would be, at least in the short-term, a disaster. Given its status as capital of the EU and NATO, there is a very large amount of traffic that is coming into BRU, not just from government officials and EU/NATO staff, but lobbyists, foreign representatives, corporations seeking to be close to the seat of power, etc. In that BRU is a bit unusual of course. The biggest losses will come from a significant decrease in inbound tourism (never a major source of revenue) and the convention/trade traffic (more or less inexistent today).

Eventually, the socio-economic impact will be muted as other carriers will fill the void. The groups most affected in the long-term by the loss of a home carrier are also the most mobile (pilots and crew), and thus the most apt at finding a job with another airline.

It will take one medium-sized country to finally decide they cannot subsidize their local carrier indefinitely (SAS, Brussels Airlines, ITA, Air Portugal...) and eventually Europe will realize a home carrier in every capital is not necessary or justified. The challenge will be for governments in how to manage the transition.

PttU
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by PttU »

longwings wrote: 19 Jul 2022, 14:20
The socio-economic impact for the local workforce would be, at least in the short-term, a disaster. Given its status as capital of the EU and NATO, there is a very large amount of traffic that is coming into BRU, not just from government officials and EU/NATO staff, but lobbyists, foreign representatives, corporations seeking to be close to the seat of power, etc. In that BRU is a bit unusual of course. The biggest losses will come from a significant decrease in inbound tourism (never a major source of revenue) and the convention/trade traffic (more or less inexistent today).
I don't see a solution, but I kinda see the problem...
SN makes money by selling tickets for their flights. Business travellers will usually rather choose SN than Ryanair. In that part of the market, the "flag carriers" of the country of origin for those EU/NATO/trade/... and other business travellers are the biggest competitors. For these customers the price isn't the most important, but convenience, timing of the flights,... is.
But those business travellers usually don't fill the plane, and to make SN profitable, they need a good LF, thus adding tourists, leisure... But in that part of the market their competition are the LCC, which forces SN to follow to low prices, making it harder to fill the plane with passengers who fill the purse as well.

And that's the case for short haul. For long haul, I guess the main problem is SN offers flights to "end destinations", whereas a lot of travellers in BRU on TK/QR/EY/EK and even LH take passengers from SN because after their flight out of BRU (to their own hub), there's a connecting flight to the end destination of the traveller. I don't see SN having a lot of those transferring passengers towards Africa or North America. And BRU as an (intercontinental) hub is just too small: about 10 destinations aren't really that much: especially as they don't all have a daily and direct flight. Compared to TK/QR/EY/EK/..., SN might call itself lucky those airlines don't use their size (and money reserves) to increase the amount of flights to African destinations SN offers too.

What do you think? Correct analysis?

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Flanker2 »

PttU wrote: 19 Jul 2022, 22:30
longwings wrote: 19 Jul 2022, 14:20
The socio-economic impact for the local workforce would be, at least in the short-term, a disaster. Given its status as capital of the EU and NATO, there is a very large amount of traffic that is coming into BRU, not just from government officials and EU/NATO staff, but lobbyists, foreign representatives, corporations seeking to be close to the seat of power, etc. In that BRU is a bit unusual of course. The biggest losses will come from a significant decrease in inbound tourism (never a major source of revenue) and the convention/trade traffic (more or less inexistent today).
I don't see a solution, but I kinda see the problem...
SN makes money by selling tickets for their flights. Business travellers will usually rather choose SN than Ryanair. In that part of the market, the "flag carriers" of the country of origin for those EU/NATO/trade/... and other business travellers are the biggest competitors. For these customers the price isn't the most important, but convenience, timing of the flights,... is.
But those business travellers usually don't fill the plane, and to make SN profitable, they need a good LF, thus adding tourists, leisure... But in that part of the market their competition are the LCC, which forces SN to follow to low prices, making it harder to fill the plane with passengers who fill the purse as well.

And that's the case for short haul. For long haul, I guess the main problem is SN offers flights to "end destinations", whereas a lot of travellers in BRU on TK/QR/EY/EK and even LH take passengers from SN because after their flight out of BRU (to their own hub), there's a connecting flight to the end destination of the traveller. I don't see SN having a lot of those transferring passengers towards Africa or North America. And BRU as an (intercontinental) hub is just too small: about 10 destinations aren't really that much: especially as they don't all have a daily and direct flight. Compared to TK/QR/EY/EK/..., SN might call itself lucky those airlines don't use their size (and money reserves) to increase the amount of flights to African destinations SN offers too.

What do you think? Correct analysis?
I think that the future challenge for Africa will come from African airlines. Even jets like the A220 have the legs to fly 7 hour routes now and African airlines are ordering them.
This segment will eventually transition completely to narrowbody, as debated already 15 years ago.

SN's long term future is as a nationalised airline operating key routes within Europe and to/from Africa with zero emissions .
But Belgium's future is not to be a tiny hub for a tiny airline, it needs to use its unique geo positioning to push for major transport reform.
600km/h Maglev lines
Amsterdam-Brussels-Paris-Barcelona-Madrid
Copenhagen-Hamburg-Frankfurt-Zurich-Milan-Rome
and a crossing between those lines.
This combined with local HSR can replace 60% of intra-EU flying.

Airlines and airport can be part of the solution by ensuring smooth transmodal transfers.

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cathay belgium
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

Indeed ...

But in Belgium they can't decide even to built one needed power line !

Case closed...

Not in this life !
Maglev...

From Hasselt to Antwerp please 🥺❤️


CXB
New types flown 2024 : DO228, A338 , PC6

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longwings
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by longwings »

PttU wrote: 19 Jul 2022, 22:30What do you think? Correct analysis?
For the first half, I do agree with your conclusion. Brussels Airlines has a small home market with significant overlaps from larger airports. That forces the airline to compete in every segment (premium, eco, low-cost) and it would be difficult for any airline to calibrate the onboard service – what most passengers remember – well to each segment so that it is sufficiently differentiated and justifies a price difference, especially between eco and low-cost.

I’m not quite onboard with the second half. True that Brussels Airlines has competition from foreign airlines offering connecting service, however Brussels Airlines’ weakness is that it is not enough of a competitor in those airlines’ home markets. KLM has a local market that is not very different than Brussels, but a much higher number of connecting passengers, and a much higher number of destinations. Unfortunately for Brussels Airlines, everything that could help it become a larger competitor in the connecting market is lined up on the wrong side: its brand, management, and ownership, the airport, and local politicians.
cathay belgium wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 20:26But in Belgium they can't decide even to built one needed power line !
Agreed. The country that can't build a third line on one of its busiest rail corridors in 20 years and that can't accept that laying tracks in flat lands is cheaper than over changing elevation will not have a maglev train until the EU decides to have an infrastructure fund for poor, incompetent, mismanaged countries that will pick up 100% of the cost. And even then, they will argue for another 20 years over where the funds should be spent first.

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Flanker2 »

cathay belgium wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 20:26 Hi,

Indeed ...

But in Belgium they can't decide even to built one needed power line !

Case closed...

Not in this life !
Maglev...

From Hasselt to Antwerp please 🥺❤️


CXB
The cost to build a tunneled line as below would be about 500 Billion euro's.
http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=ams-bru-cdg- ... 40x540&PM=*

That's roughly the cost of 10000 A320's minus airport infrastructure cost, but if fuel costs and longer useful life are factored in, it's only the cost of 300 A320's at any given time.
Also being an infrastructure project, a lot of the money would trickle down to provide employment.
If it's tunneled very few can object.

Airlines can be instrumental in achieving this.

With Maglev, BRU-BCN would be less than 2 hours excluding station stops, but a realistic 2.5 hours city to city.
Now, a BRU-BCN by airplane city to city is a 5 hour trip minimum. You lose all day.
Moreover, KLM is working with NS Dutch Railways and other European railway companies to explore the options of additional high-speed, comfortable rail services for transferring passengers to other destinations.
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/air- ... assengers/

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Passenger »

it would be stupid from the Lufthansa Group to invest in setting up a hub in a foreign country like Belgium, when they have already a hub in their own country: Frankfurt. Only when FRA would become saturated, they could look for a second hub. But if so, Zürich/Swiss is their first option because the nett income of its citizens is much highier then in Belgium. Thus more local feed.

For the Lufthansa Group, Brussels Airlines has a lead over Lufthansa for flights to Central and East Africa.
longwings wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 23:56 Unfortunately for Brussels Airlines, everything that could help it become a larger competitor in the connecting market is lined up on the wrong side: its brand, management, and ownership, the airport, and local politicians.
You have forgotten a group of wrongdo-ers in your list: employees going on a three-days-strike when their employer has the worst ever financial crisis.

PopUp

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by PopUp »

b720 wrote: 17 Jul 2022, 10:34 however, agree that SN has failed.
SN or LH ?
b720 wrote: 18 Jul 2022, 11:45 SN has failed in creating a PROFITABLE Connecting HUb.
SN or LH ?

PopUp

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by PopUp »

Passenger wrote: 25 Jul 2022, 11:59 it would be stupid from the Lufthansa Group to invest in setting up a hub in a foreign country like Belgium, when they have already a hub in their own country: Frankfurt. Only when FRA would become saturated, they could look for a second hub. But if so, Zürich/Swiss is their first option because the nett income of its citizens is much highier then in Belgium. Thus more local feed.

For the Lufthansa Group, Brussels Airlines has a lead over Lufthansa for flights to Central and East Africa.
longwings wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 23:56 Unfortunately for Brussels Airlines, everything that could help it become a larger competitor in the connecting market is lined up on the wrong side: its brand, management, and ownership, the airport, and local politicians.
You have forgotten a group of wrongdo-ers in your list: employees going on a three-days-strike when their employer has the worst ever financial crisis.
Being a pilot is not an administrative job, sitting at a desk. Would you like to fly in a plane whose pilots are exhausted ?

As to the BRU hub, LH as not only FRA as a hub, but also MUC. And ZRH with its darling LX. Without forgetting VIE and OS that are perhaps given the same status as SN/BRU by Spohr.

Time will tell what will happen. But imho, Spohr is not really interested in SN. Via the "loyalty" program (M&M), he tries us to be loyal to SN and the LH Group, meaning, for instance, flying east (to FRA, MUC, ZRH) to fly west (mainly the Americas). Put your SN miles in a United MileagePlus account. Your miles will never expire !
The cosmetic investments (new crew uniforms and a monkey-pox new livery for the aircrafts) are just a smoke screen. Real investments are needed, but remember, Spohr said an airline had to make a profit to deserve new investments. Only, SN has not been given what it deserves and needs to become a profitable airline. So, how do we square the circle ?

Lux_avi
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Lux_avi »

PopUp wrote: 25 Jul 2022, 20:28
Being a pilot is not an administrative job, sitting at a desk. Would you like to fly in a plane whose pilots are exhausted ?
90% of his posts are against unions, strikes & passenger rights.
He's not interested in discussing about that anyway, he has his ideas & they are very closed.

What do you think of someone who pushes for passenger rights but agrees with the fact that crew fly fatigued beyond limits...? ;)
Yep, I'll agree with you, PopUp.

fcw
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by fcw »

PopUp wrote: 25 Jul 2022, 20:28 Being a pilot is not an administrative job, sitting at a desk. Would you like to fly in a plane whose pilots are exhausted ?
Fatigue is a shared responsibility!
An airline should not produce fatiguing rosters, but ultimately it’s the pilot who has to offload themselves and file an air safety report. By law, you can’t operate when you think you’re too tired.

PopUp

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by PopUp »

I agree. The law is the law. Btw, off topic, when is Ryanair going to abide by the law in Belgium (and probably in other countries, too).
I can only have respect for pilots and cc who "go the extra mile" in difficult circumstances to try and keep their airlines alive and consequently keep their jobs.
I also respect them when they can no longer accept the work schedules imposed on them and manage to negotiate "lawful" schedules.
If it is indeed a shared responsibility, imho, the main responsibility remains with the employer.
When the employer does not want to listen to the concerns of their employees, the latter will take action, like going on strike, which in turn will generate reactions like "it's unacceptable to take passengers as hostages", etc... Going on strike with a strike notice is lawful. Taking your employer as hostage (kidnapping him ?) is not. Sorry for going perhaps too far, but in the end it boils down to that. Most airlines have managed the covid crisis very poorly. I don't want to constantly blame LH/Spohr, but I have the feeling there was and is still something rotten in their Kingdom. Btw, only slightly off topic, correct me if I am wrong, TAP pilots have agreed to all salary cuts imposed on them in order to avoid that the "employer" can blame the groundind and bankrupcy of the airline on the pilots. Another airline with a serious management and organisation problem.

brusselsairlinesfan
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

In this times of post Covid air travel recovery, what is SN current market share at BRU ?

fcw
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by fcw »

brusselsairlinesfan wrote: 27 Jul 2022, 19:51 In this times of post Covid air travel recovery, what is SN current market share at BRU ?
Not happy with answer you received in the relevant topic?
sn26567 wrote: 01 Jul 2022, 16:30
brusselsairlinesfan wrote: 01 Jul 2022, 08:07 Does anyone know the current SN market share @ BRU ?
Yesterday I heard Arnaud Feist, CEO of Brussels Airport, say that SN is operating 1 out of every 3 flights in Brussels.

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longwings
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by longwings »

Passenger wrote: 25 Jul 2022, 11:59
longwings wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 23:56 Unfortunately for Brussels Airlines, everything that could help it become a larger competitor in the connecting market is lined up on the wrong side: its brand, management, and ownership, the airport, and local politicians.
You have forgotten a group of wrongdo-ers in your list: employees going on a three-days-strike when their employer has the worst ever financial crisis.
For once I am not going to split the baby. The strike was 100% management's fault. It is either sheer incompetence or a brazen attempt to take advantage of a highly unusual situation. Anyone with half a brain cell knew deals signed at the height of Covid when planes were flying empty - if at all - needed to be revisited when planes were full again. Brussels Airlines and SAS didn't get it. Everyone else did. Two airlines need a new management team.

brusselsairlinesfan
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

fcw wrote: 27 Jul 2022, 23:06
brusselsairlinesfan wrote: 27 Jul 2022, 19:51 In this times of post Covid air travel recovery, what is SN current market share at BRU ?
Not happy with answer you received in the relevant topic?
sn26567 wrote: 01 Jul 2022, 16:30
brusselsairlinesfan wrote: 01 Jul 2022, 08:07 Does anyone know the current SN market share @ BRU ?
Yesterday I heard Arnaud Feist, CEO of Brussels Airport, say that SN is operating 1 out of every 3 flights in Brussels.
Thank you very much. I thought SN was around 40%

Luke777
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by Luke777 »

KLM Royal Dutch Airlines posted positive operating results for the fourth time in a row in the second quarter of 2022. Profits came to €262 million, compared to a €185 million loss in the same quarter last year. Nice for KLM, how is the comparison with brussels Airlines for this period ?

PopUp

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2022

Post by PopUp »

Comparing SN and KL is like comparing apples and pears.
In short : the sizes of the airlines is different and they do not have comparable management teams.

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