Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

[lumumba]

We have a Minister and a parliament they have to decide about all this not a chief from I don't now what section in the army but for that they need to receive the right information.
That the problem here!!!!

[KriVa]

Well, in a perfect world the decision would be taken by those who are in the best position to decide what capabilities are needed. And honestly, I don’t think that honour goes to our ministers. While they do have a clue, of course, I think the people using the aircraft are a better source of info regarding requirements.

[lumumba]

Well, in a perfect world the decision would be taken by those who are in the best position to decide what capabilities are needed. And honestly, I don’t think that honour goes to our ministers. While they do have a clue, of course, I think the people using the aircraft are a better source of info regarding requirements.

That would be a fascist world,and we live in a democratic one .
Sure the army has to give there option of what's best for them but the final decision has to be taken by the parliament.
But to do that correctly they need all the information and that's what's missing here .
It's not Army's money it ours!

[KriVa]

In what way would that be fascism? Fascism is a very narrow term, and I don’t think this would fall under that.
I’m not saying the decision should ONLY be taken by the army/defense, but that they should get the majority of the decision power from the valid proposals.

[Yuqu12]

An old colonel said that the army likes ministers and parties who don't know much about the army, as the army can then "force" its will upon them. Guess they were wrong this time.

[sn26567]

I attended a conference on the replacement of the F-16s yesterday, by a retired General of the BAF. It looks like the F-35 is largely the favourite: the most technologically advanced and not necessarily the most expensive (with 3000 sales, vs 600 for the Eurofighter and 300 for the Rafale, the scale effect could become important: the price in 2019 should be around 85,000,000 euros).

[lumumba]

I attended a conference on the replacement of the F-16s yesterday, by a retired General of the BAF. It looks like the F-35 is largely the favourite: the most technologically advanced and not necessarily the most expensive (with 3000 sales, vs 600 for the Eurofighter and 300 for the Rafale, the scale effect could become important: the price in 2019 should be around 85,000,000 euros).

That's why it's so important to have an European army to reach the critical mass....

[KriVa]

I assume that’s 85 mio EUR? If not, sign me up for one, would be fun on weekends! They can keep the weaponry for a nice little discount.
Kidding aside, Even with economies of scale in play, I don’t think it will become a cheap endeavour, though I haven’t got any source material at hand right now to back that up.

[sn26567]

I assume that’s 85 mio EUR?

Of course, Thomas: that's what happens when you are too fast. Corrected!

[Desert Rat]

I attended a conference on the replacement of the F-16s yesterday, by a retired General of the BAF. It looks like the F-35 is largely the favourite: the most technologically advanced and not necessarily the most expensive (with 3000 sales, vs 600 for the Eurofighter and 300 for the Rafale, the scale effect could become important: the price in 2019 should be around 85,000,000 euros).

These top ranking officer get a nice retirement package, but still they continue lobbying work to influence the public, the press and the decision makers.
This shouldn't be allowed.

[Desert Rat]

http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4991.html

Interresting news!

Extending the life of the F-16, which has a proven record of reliability, is certainly not a bad idea. It will save hundreds of millions of euros to the Belgian budget and give a few years of additional time to select the best option, without feeling the intense pressure of F-35 supporters in the neck.

The information has been available for a long time...

http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4991.html

[Krikketeer]

no fighter force needed? Bullshit ... If you want to have a little bit of weight in international affairs, it won't be with A400Ms and NH90 you will achieve it .. Libia, Afghanistan, Yougoslavia anyone...? Scandinavian countries, which you cannot call "war-lovers" also keep a defense force that includes an airborn weapon.. You want to keep the NATO and EU HQ in Brussels (with all the economic benefits it brings) but for simple things like QRA and air patrol you will ask the French or Dutch to do it during a NATO or EU summit ...? Let's see how long it will take the french to use this as an argument to move it all to Strasbourg. We host the NAT and EU, this brings responisbilities .. Additionally, we have an aerospace industry here in Belgium .. Unless you want them to specialise in re-painting Avro's or DHL planes with panda-logos, a seizable air force is essential to keep that industry alive as well.

I have to agree. Being a Belgian myself, I am disturbed by the argument made that we don't need a fighter and that such roles should be divided in the european/NATO alliance.

Two insights I'd like to make:

First of all the belgian army doesn't have tanks anymore, we've switched to armored vehicles. We have a small army in the numbers game, certainly considering large nations. But the strength of our military forces has never ben quantity (no shit), but quality. Our commando's are world renowned, are special forces are considered with the best of the best worldwide. Our bomb disposal unit just the same. Our airforce ( and with it I speak in particularly our fighter pilots) also have very high standards in the world. So why wouldn't we have aircraft to use those pilots. After all working together like in the EU is very nice, but when push comes to shove, every country will first look at protecting itself and after it's allies, do you want to take the gamble?

Secondly, there is indeed the matter that the NATO expects it's members to carry a certain "burden" as you will. And I don't think that transforming the belgian armed forces into a humanitarian force will anybody any good, except for potential enemies.

So yes, Belgium is a very small country, but with the expertise and professionalism we have adapted, we are, despite our low numbers, a force to be reckoned with. That is if we have the right equipment.

[Stij]

Welcome to Luchtzak Krikketeer,

And thank-you for your insight!

Cheers,

Stij

[lumumba]

But nobody said that we don't need fighters....
One argument could be that like Airbus it's time to have an European army industry !

[DIBO]

The information has been available for a long time...

http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4991.html

This article refers only to block 40 airframes (and upwards). Maybe these results were later applied to define the life extension for block 20 like ours, but that's not mentioned in this article.

[regi]

time to make our own fighter, just as Sweden.
Sweden counts just a bit less inhabitants than Belgium, but succeeds to build its own fighter and to sell it abroad.

[jan_olieslagers]

A good point, @Regi! However I do not think the Belgian electorate is prepared to spend as much on military and political neutrality as the Swedish. Even with the (limited) foreign sales, the Swedish combat jets must be horribly expensive. A Belgian design would be even worse, for lack of a tradition/reputation.

[lumumba]

time to make our own fighter, just as Sweden.
Sweden counts just a bit less inhabitants than Belgium, but succeeds to build its own fighter and to sell it abroad.

Or like I said before a European fighter Or even better a European army industry like Airbus....

[eurojet]

... whatever happens Lockheed Martin wins ... if they want to extend life of the f16 we pay EUR 2 Bn to LHM .. After 7 years the Eurofighrer and Rafale are out of production or obsolete so only choice left is ... the F35 .... if I were the socialists I would definitely push for extension of the life of the f16 to be sure we chose the f35 afterwards .... .. in any case with voting intention for SPA lower than 10 pct these days I think their opinion in the file is, less say, not that relevant .... much ado about nothing this whole circus ...

[lumumba]

... whatever happens Lockheed Martin wins ... if they want to extend life of the f16 we pay EUR 2 Bn to LHM .. After 7 years the Eurofighrer and Rafale are out of production or obsolete so only choice left is ... the F35 .... if I were the socialists I would definitely push for extension of the life of the f16 to be sure we chose the f35 afterwards .... .. in any case with voting intention for SPA lower than 10 pct these days I think their opinion in the file is, less say, not that relevant .... much ado about nothing this whole circus ...

And why not a European fighter....!