Ryanair in 2012

[Inquirer]

Since its all about a tax imposed by the Spanish government, can we thus also assume further cuts from Ryanair at other Spanish airports then, given those will also be subjected to the same said 'unjustified and unnecessary tax increases'?

If the answer is yes, which routes are likely to be cut and thus in fact no longer worth booking as from now on not to risk being confronted with cancellations; if no, why are those routes not affected despite the higher taxes and doesn't this proof the point that many or the ryanair routes are in fact undertaxed today, which is what the spanish government seems to be betting on: that they might very well lose some routes, but overall will get more tax revenues from the remaining ones nevertheless?

[sn26567]

These extortionate tax increases, which are now being investigated by the EU Commission, are particularly damaging for Spanish tourism, jobs and the economy at a time when youth unemployment in Spain stands at an alarming 50%.

Isn't a fair airport tax a normal way to get some money in the finances of the Spanish State, which has an alarming level of debt?

Since its all about a tax imposed by the Spanish government, can we thus also assume further cuts from Ryanair at other Spanish airports then, given those will also be subjected to the same said 'unjustified and unnecessary tax increases'?

The taxes in MAD and BCN are much higher than at any other Spanish airport.

[Inquirer]

These extortionate tax increases, which are now being investigated by the EU Commission, are particularly damaging for Spanish tourism, jobs and the economy at a time when youth unemployment in Spain stands at an alarming 50%.

Isn't a fair airport tax a normal way to get some money in the finances of the Spanish State, which has an alarming level of debt?

Indeed!

Spain -which currently shows a huge budget deficit- absolutely needs to cut that deficit by all possibly means and it must do so in the shortest possible time because it really is the only way to calm the financial markets and avoid skyhigh interest rates from being asked on new loans as well as on loans issued to roll over the existing debt. If that means they need to tax more, then so be it, and if that hinders employment, then so be it too.

Once their budget deficit is on a steady path down and the cost of servicing exisiting debt is back under control, they can think about stimulating their economy again by subsidizing cheap flights, but right now they have other priorities than to hand out sweet deals to low cost airlines in the hope of seeing them bring a few tens of thousand of bargain holiday makers. Those people are not going to fundamentally solve the core issues Spain is being confronted with: only higher taxes and lower government expenditure will do, and the above closure or routes is simply collatteral damage from very necessary and seemingly just tax increases, even if they are unpleasant, IMHO.

[Inquirer]

The taxes in MAD and BCN are much higher than at any other Spanish airport.

Yes I know, or rather I can imagine, but that doesn't help with their reasoning, quite on the contrary even.

They claim the increase in taxes from the Spanish government is killing these routes, so my questions remain: Why is it only affecting routes from MAD and BCN (so far)? Did the Spanish government only increase taxes at MAD and BCN? Why? Or are Ryan Air currently reviewing other Spanish routes too and is there more to follow? Which are other likely candidates where Ryan Air fails to make it work and may thus see the axe?

[andorra-airport]

All airports in Spain have an airport tax below 2 euro. But... Barcelona 8.95 and Madrid 9.12 + 11.64 (non eu).
Barcelona and Madrid are going to raise this, and due to high competition, there is not much money to earn.

[Inquirer]

All airports in Spain have an airport tax below 2 euro. But... Barcelona 8.95 and Madrid 9.12 + 11.64 (non eu).
Barcelona and Madrid are going to raise this, and due to high competition, there is not much money to earn.

So in fact, its not so much the tax itself, but rather the competition that is killing Ryan Air on these routes?

Anybody an idea if a lot of the routes they'll cut next summer currently see competition?
It would be interesting to statistically check their claim about higher taxes as the driving reason behind all this, because if it is, then surely most competitors (if they do exist) must be cutting back then?
Could be a nice excercise to see the ratio?

[airazurxtror]

If the answer is yes, which routes are likely to be cut and thus in fact no longer worth booking as from now on not to risk being confronted with cancellations;

You are not, by any chance, going to book an FR flight, I hope ?

[sean1982]

All airports in Spain have an airport tax below 2 euro. But... Barcelona 8.95 and Madrid 9.12 + 11.64 (non eu).
Barcelona and Madrid are going to raise this, and due to high competition, there is not much money to earn.

So in fact, its not so much the tax itself, but rather the competition that is killing Ryan Air on these routes?

Anybody an idea if a lot of the routes they'll cut next summer currently see competition?
It would be interesting to statistically check their claim about higher taxes as the driving reason behind all this, because if it is, then surely most competitors (if they do exist) must be cutting back then?
Could be a nice excercise to see the ratio?

No more competitors in MAD as EZY has allready closed their operating base in MAD for the exact same reason

[tolipanebas]

All airports in Spain have an airport tax below 2 euro. But... Barcelona 8.95 and Madrid 9.12 + 11.64 (non eu).
Barcelona and Madrid are going to raise this, and due to high competition, there is not much money to earn.

So in fact, its not so much the tax itself, but rather the competition that is killing Ryan Air on these routes?

Anybody an idea if a lot of the routes they'll cut next summer currently see competition?
It would be interesting to statistically check their claim about higher taxes as the driving reason behind all this, because if it is, then surely most competitors (if they do exist) must be cutting back then?
Could be a nice excercise to see the ratio?

No more competitors in MAD as EZY has allready closed their operating base in MAD for the exact same reason

Mind you, the world of aviation is bigger than just FR and U2...

FWIW, here's a list of ALL competitors on the routes which see cutbacks from Ryanair at BCN for instance:
1. Alicante = VY
2. Asturias = VY
3. Bilbao = VY
4. Bruselas (Charleroi) = VY and SN to BRU
5. Budapest = WU
6. Fuerteventura = VY
7. Gran Canaria = VY
8. Hamburg (Lubeck) = LH and 4U to HAM, VY as from next summer
9. Ibiza = VY
10. Liverpool = U2
11. Menorca = VY
12. Malaga = VY
13. Milan (Bergamo) = VY, with U2 to MXP and AZ to LIN
14. Munich = LH, VY as from next summer
15. Palma = VY, UX and AB
16. Porto = TP
17. Roma (Ciampino) = VY, with AZ to FCO
18. Santander = VY
19. Santiago = VY
20. Sevilla = VY
21. Stockholm (Skavsta) = VY, DY and SK to ARN
22. Tenerife Sur = VY
23. Trieste = NONE
24. Venecia (Treviso) = VY and AZ to VCE

So on a total of 24 routes affected, only 1 is having no competition; the other 23 routes have at least 1 competitor. Interestingly enough in several cases there's going to be a new entrant to routes right at the very same time when FR shies away from them. Just shows you what the true added value of those ryanair flights is: close to zero indeed.

[airazurxtror]

La Direction Générale de l'Aviation Civile Française (DGAC) has released the 2011 statistics.
In number of passengers, Ryanair is n°3 in France although having no base there.
Air France is leader with 44 million pax, n°2 is easyJet (UK+Switserland) with 13,6 million, n°3 is Ryanair (7,024 million), n°4 is Lufthansa (3,85 million), etc.
http://www.air-journal.fr/2012-11-29-la ... 61985.html

[RoMax]

To compare SN ranked 20th of the international airlines (so not including the French carriers) with 702.610 passengers, ranking just behind Iberia and in front of Turkish Airlines (doesn't seem a lot while SN has quite some destinations in France, but of course most carriers have quite some capacity to Paris, while that is quite limited with SN because of the Thalys).
When you include the French carriers I don't know their exact ranking but you have still Air France, Regional CAE (part of Air France, but with their own AOC probably, so seen as a seperate carrier), Brit Air (same story), Aigle Azur, Air Corsica, Transavia France, Corsairfly, Air Austrial, Air Tahiti... in front of SN. Many of them are rather small airlines, but of course bigger than 700 000 pax/year.
A pitty we don't have the RYR numbers for Belgium-France only, would be nice to compare these numbers actually.

[tolipanebas]

ironically, while FR are complaining about 'unnecessary and unjustified' increases in fees in Spain, the airline itself has massively increased travel costs by introducing yet another newly invented and extremely expensive fee for its customers today!

As from this morning, ryanair charges passengers a whopping £6 administration fee per flight, said to cover the airline's website costs.

Initially, bookings made using Ryanair's "cash passport" scheme in Ireland, Germany and Spain can still avoid paying the fee till February 1, February 15 and March 21 respectively, but after that EACH return ticket booked online will be subject to this totally 'unnecessary and unjustified' fee, no matter where or what.

[sean1982]

ironically, while FR are complaining about 'unnecessary and unjustified' increases in fees in Spain, the airline itself has massively increased travel costs by introducing yet another newly invented and extremely expensive fee for its customers today!

As from this morning, ryanair charges passengers a whopping £6 administration fee per flight, said to cover the airline's website costs.

Initially, bookings made using Ryanair's "cash passport" scheme in Ireland, Germany and Spain can still avoid paying the fee till February 1, February 15 and March 21 respectively, but after that EACH return ticket booked online will be subject to this totally 'unnecessary and unjustified' fee, no matter where or what.

Hahahahaha Seriously, you crack me up man. If the routes that FR pulls out off are being replaced by a competitor straight away, that means their is a market for these routes otherwise they wouldnt be worth flying them.

Suddenly in your list I see SN, TP, AZ, etc... While in the past you've been screaming that they are no competitors at all as they serve 2 totally different markets?? Suddenly changed your mind?

FR 3rd in France, 2nd in Belgium (soon to be 1 probably as there is a huge amount of extra airplanes coming next summer, they really gonna need those 9 extra stands in CRL )

I'd rather spend 6€ on a 60 Euro flight extra, then the 550 EUR SN tries to charge me for a 2 hour flight. The offset price for a coffee and a sandwich?? Ah no ... I'd have to pay for that as well :-/

As usual you only look at the facts you wanna see, while ignoring everything else Keep living your dream man, as long as it still excists!! The desert awaits!

[Acid-drop]

soon to be 1 probably as there is a huge amount of extra airplanes coming next summer, they really gonna need those 9 extra stands in CRL

Do you have any online source ? that's interesting...
and also strange because CRL mgmt said the airport is at max capacity in the rush hours ... there is only slots left in the middle of the day

[sean1982]

Hi Acid,

no, not online, but inside. It's true that the peak hours are saturated, but there is still a lot of room to work around them. peak hours are 06.30-07.30 and 22.00-23.00 but besides those there is room to spare. This will affect the maximalisation of flight hours per airplane per day, but I'm sure that on some routes, FR and JAF will be able to offset these costs.

[tolipanebas]

If the routes that FR pulls out off are being replaced by a competitor straight away, that means their is a market for these routes otherwise they wouldnt be worth flying them.

Thank you for subscribing to my point exactly.

Suddenly in your list I see SN, TP, AZ, etc... While in the past you've been screaming that they are no competitors at all as they serve 2 totally different markets?? Suddenly changed your mind?

Screaming? You are confusing your emotional style of discussing with my factual approach to the matter.
What I've shown here beyond any doubt and much to your obvious frustration is that whereas Ryanair pretends highered taxes in Spain are making these 24 routes unviable, 23 out of them will continue to see other airlines operate on them from the EXACT same airports which have just increased their taxes and some routes will even see new entrants right at the very same moment when FR shies away. Weird, isn't it?

FR 3rd in France, 2nd in Belgium

I'd suggest you to have a very good look at way these national rankings are made; double dipping is the term used for this phenomenon.

Keep living your dream man, as long as it still excists!! The desert awaits!

As I've told you before, there's a whole new world beyond FR's very limited regional route map, but of course somebody like you will never know, staying near his local parish church all his life.

BTW, have they already explained you how to handle basic diversions in the sim without turning what is nothing but a routine event into full blown emergencies?

[tolipanebas]

How funny you citin "commercial failure" when the airline is making 0.5 billion euro of profit a year Such a failure that is

So they are cutting the routes to reduce their profit then, is that what you are saying?
My God, what a unique business model they have, indeed! Keep up the good work, I'd say!

Your quote about my life I will kindly ignore as you know nothing about it, and in fact pompous pricks like you don't have any business with. Better brush up on your arabian now :p

Did I say anything about you personally then?
I can't see where I went beyond matters related to your airline's operations: you just seem to associate extremely closely with all of it, as in "I have no personal life of my own, since my work is my everything"

BTW, I will of course report your misbehaviour and personal insult to the mods for removal and sanctioning, especially as you admit taking pleasure in deliberately breaching the forum rules even.

[sean1982]

Oh now, first you we're saying on the EXACT same airports, where as I look at your list when talking about EXACT same airports you can take 7 extra destinations of the list. Furthermore you can take all the AZ, TP, SN etc of the list as they serve a totally different market (what you said yourself countless times before). They are cutting routes to increase profits. Didn't SN do the same recently?? Commercial failure perhaps?

and then you can say this about me: "but of course somebody like you will never know, staying near his local parish church all his life"

and this: "I have no personal life of my own, since my work is my everything"

and I don't have the right to respond to that? It's called right of speech and I will excercise it as I see fit.
Allready awaiting my "sanction" with pleasure OMG, it keeps getting better and better

[tolipanebas]

Oh now, first you we're saying on the EXACT same airports, where as I look at your list when talking about EXACT same airports you can take 7 extra destinations of the list.

Since taxes on the SPANISH side increased and are quoted as sole reason, the only thing that matters according to ryanair itself is the Spanish side: as you can notice I've ONLY included MAD and BCN, not for instance GRO, so yes indeed, my full list is valid.

Furthermore you can take all the AZ, TP, SN etc of the list as they serve a totally different market (what you said yourself countless times before).

And you contested, so now you are actually agruing with me over agreeing with you? Weird phenomenon.

They are cutting routes to increase profits. Didn't SN do the same recently?? Commercial failure perhaps?

Again, are you agruing with your own reasoning now? You seem to be just as bad as flanker, you know?

Allready awaiting my "sanction" with pleasure OMG, it keeps getting better and better

No need for orgasmic sadomasochism on this site, let's keep to the mimimum standards, even though it seems to be extremely difficult for you, shall we?

[sean1982]

at least I have standards, there is no reason you have the right to attack me personally and I do not have the right to defend myself. You can tell that to the mod.
What you are saying now is that you don't agree with yoursel in the past cause now we are serving the same market and my contesting was not valid? Have I ever said FR was cutting the routes just out of protest?? cutting routes with high taxes = higher profits? doesn't seem to be rocket science to me.

Again, contradictio in terminis