BRU 05/01/2009 snow, delays & cancellations

[Depretair]

Hello,


It seems that we have a lot of delays and some cancellations @ Brussels Airport.
Does an insider have more info about the situation there ?

Thanks

Oli

[jan_olieslagers]

A little look at the weather explains much:

METAR EBBR 050920Z 05003KT 1200 R25L/P1500N R25R/1300N R02/P1500N -SN SCT002 BKN003 M01/M02 Q1016 R25/492521 R02/492525 R75/492520 NOSIG=

Very low clouds, limited visibility (end of runway not visible!), slightly freezing, bit of snow falling. Not optimal flying weather, is it?
Though I don't understand the last group of 3

R25/492521 R02/492525 R75/492520

, anyone kindly explain? I first thought we had mysteriously got a new runway 75...

[tolipanebas]

25 means 25L
75 means 25R

In all snowtams and by convention, in case of parallel runways, the left is always shown as the main runway, they right is shown with +50 added to it, hence the 75.

[FlightMate]

if I'm not mistaken, the last 2 digits in the snowtams represent the braking action

>40 = good
35-40 = medium / good
30-35 = medium
25-30 = poor / medium
<25= poor

(I might be wrong on the numbers, don't have the table in front of me)

But in these conditions, poor will mean NO landing.

[jan_olieslagers]

Thanks for explaining, guys!

[Lamal]

Hi,

Put the METAR of EBBR in the IVAO-decoder, and gave the following result:

Metar:
EBBR 050950Z 06007KT 2500 -SN SCT003 BKN006 M01/M02 Q1017 R25/492521 R02/492525 R75/492520 BECMG 4000 NSW SCT006

Decoded:
EBBR Brussels airport
Brussels, Belgium
Issued on Day 5, at 0950Z
Winds from 060 at 7 knots
Visibility 2500 meters
Weather: light snow
Scattered clouds at 300 ft
Broken clouds at 600 ft
Temperature minus 1, dewpoint minus 2
Saturation vapor pressure 5,6 mbar
Actual vapor pressure 5,2 mbar
Relative humidity 92,9%
Wind chill index -3
QNH 1017 mbar
Runway 25 Valid for Day 49, between 2500Z and next day 2100Z
Runway 02 Valid for Day 49, between 2500Z and next day 2500Z
Runway 75 Valid for Day 49, between 2500Z and next day 2000Z
Becoming:
Visibility 4000 meters
No significant weather
Scattered clouds at 600 ft

Greetz,

Lamal

[tolipanebas]

As you can see above, the automatic METAR decoder does not correctly decode the SNOWTAM.
(it thinks it is a date/time group, which is obviously completely meaningless in that context)

To correctly decode a SNOWTAM in a METAR , use this link:

http://www.b737mrg.net/downloads/b737mr ... mmetar.pdf

A piece of cake as you can see; the only tricky part is that the last 2 digits either give a measured nominal breaking (or friction) coefficient or a qualitative appreciation of the breaking efficiency, depending on the airport, so make sure not to confuse a 91 (poor) with an exceptionally good breaking action of µ.91...
some experience and understanding of the WX at hand should however make sure you don't do so.

Enjoy.

FWIW, SNOWTAMS are also coded in NOTAMS, but they have a completely different format there because they are far more detailed than the one above which is included in a METAR...
If required, I can post a link to a schematic decoder for SNOWTAMS in NOTAM format too.

[Vinnie-Winnie]

Well I was on flight bd 140 which was supposed to leave at 07h25. We got into the plane on time. Due to the weather conditions the captain announced that we would be waiting for a de-icing truck. Up till there ok normal. The de-icing truck came after 10 minutes but didn't stay long. Captain then announced that the truck had run out of fluids! I couldn't believe this! It took about 45 min instead of the half an hour announced by the captain for the truck to come back.

Now I know that adverse weather conditions can provoke havoc at an airport but:

- Why did the truck run out of de-icing liquid so quicky ( we must have been the fifth flight of the day)
- why not spray a smaller plane if it was obvious that we truck would run out?
- why de-ice at the gate and not before the runway as done in Zurich?
- saw some trucks spraying salt in the middle of nowhere whilst our taxiway was covered by snow? Why?
-...

So all in all 2 hours delayed instead of a possible 20 min max... Thanks incompetent bru airport (happy to change my mind if someone can tell me why this all happened...)

As an aviation enthousiast it was obviously fun seeing Bru totally snowed under. Rows of planes snowed under! The jet airways plane next to me especially made a big impression on me. Also of interest was a Bru airlines A330 being towed by a tow truck on of the taxiways towards the gate i believe. (Was under the impression that it had just landed but not sure)

All in all still remain quite unimpressed. I suppose that is the difference between travelling for leisure and travelling to work or for business purposes!

Ah last thing finally saw a bmi plane with proper business seats (2+2) was quite impressed by the size of these seats and the legroom!

[tolipanebas]

- why de-ice at the gate and not before the runway as done in Zurich?

At BRU, both gate or remote de-icing procedures are possible methods, depending on the WX and the handler.

Now, you were on a BD flight, meaning your handling agent was Aviapartner if I am not mistaken: Aviapartner NEVER uses remote de-icing, since the remote de-icing platforms in BRU are reserved exclusively for FlightCare!

With Flightcare as handling agent, the general rule is as follows:

-) when the WX is such that only a few planes have a need for de-icing (eg. cold temperatures, but no longer snowing or raining, thus only the planes who were on the ground that night need de-icing), gate de-icing is normally used as sole method, except maybe early in the morning, when all planes want to get out of BRU simultaneously to start off the day...

-) When the WX is such that virtually all planes will need de-icing however, remote de-icing is used by Flightcare, HOWEVER, gate de-icing is also continued by them as back-up procedure since the de-icing platform (depending the runway in use) has limited capacity: it is common standard for instance to continue with gate de-icing for all wide-bodies and selected narrow bodies.

. Also of interest was a Bru airlines A330 being towed by a tow truck on of the taxiways towards the gate i believe. (Was under the impression that it had just landed but not sure)

Standard procedure for SN's long haul flights:
All of SN's longhaul flights arrive at the B terminal in the morning.
SN's long haul flights leave from the T terminal (enclosed end section of the A terminal actually) however, so they have to be towed to their departure gates after de-boarding...

[744rules]

To make sure we are not seen as complete incompetents (Vinnie Winnie ), let me also add some comments.

- one of the problems is that it kept on snowing. This means that your holdover time ( = the time your killfrost is effective) is very short. Depending on temp, this can be 10-15minutes only. If at that moment you have holding at the runways, this could mean that some airplanes return to stand, as holdover time has expired and de-iceing has to start all over again. On top of that, ATC dictated the departing order, but as said above, then only de-icing could start.

-another issue is the fact that there was a lot of snow on the a/c. This takes more time to de-ice, compaired to a "dry" inbound a/c.

Of course, I will not mention the fact that it very cold to work, the apron and the service drives are slippery, some equipment is deffective due wheather, that airport authority only started to remove snow from taxiways around 1100lt, lot's of gates are blocked and a/c cannot depart as runways are closed to be swiped, ..........

The alternative to LHR is the train, but also not delay-free.

This needed to be off my chest. Remember that all the staff working at the airport is there for earning a living and is doing his/her best with the means offered.

[Stij]

- one of the problems is that it kept on snowing. This means that your holdover time ( = the time your killfrost is effective) is very short. Depending on temp, this can be 10-15minutes only. If at that moment you have holding at the runways, this could mean that some airplanes return to stand, as holdover time has expired and de-iceing has to start all over again. On top of that, ATC dictated the departing order, but as said above, then only de-icing could start.

Whithout claiming or thinking Bru staff is incompetent or something but isn't it better then to de-ice altogether at the runway treshold. I only see advantages:

- Best results as aircraft is just de-iced right before take-off.
- No risk of having to return to the gate due to ATC decision, so it saves time and money
- No need to move equipment from parking position to parking position, so it saves time and money
- If I remember well, the chemicals used aren't the most environmentally friendly, so you could collect them at one point without contaminating the normal melting water.

Or did I forget something? Maybe space at the treshold...

Cheers mates,

Stij

[b.lufthansa]

I have experience enough to say that when it snows at Brussels Airport it runs into a complete disaster .

- not enough de-icing trucks,
- not enough trucks to remove the snow from taxiways and runways (have a look at Copenhagen, Hamburg, they have a team of 10 snowtrucks, runways are cleared 20 times faster than at Brussels)

You really don't want to be at this airport when it snows, did you know pilots call the airport Brushasa ?

[744rules]

- one of the problems is that it kept on snowing. This means that your holdover time ( = the time your killfrost is effective) is very short. Depending on temp, this can be 10-15minutes only. If at that moment you have holding at the runways, this could mean that some airplanes return to stand, as holdover time has expired and de-iceing has to start all over again. On top of that, ATC dictated the departing order, but as said above, then only de-icing could start.

Whithout claiming or thinking Bru staff is incompetent or something but isn't it better then to de-ice altogether at the runway treshold. I only see advantages:

- Best results as aircraft is just de-iced right before take-off.
- No risk of having to return to the gate due to ATC decision, so it saves time and money
- No need to move equipment from parking position to parking position, so it saves time and money
- If I remember well, the chemicals used aren't the most environmentally friendly, so you could collect them at one point without contaminating the normal melting water.

Or did I forget something? Maybe space at the treshold...

Cheers mates,

Stij

Stij,

you're right, you only have valid arguments.

It puzzles me why the airport authority doesn't make a temporary agreement with ALL handlers in BRU for the de-icing.
- you can use a dedicated de-icing aera, which clears the gates for other fligths
- you have de-icing trucks permanent ( no waiting for a refill)
- you can make price arangements with all airliners


@b lufthansa

your comparison with the mentioned airports is not correct. These stations have much tougher, longer, snowier (!), colder winters as we have. This means it's worth investing in enough and adequate winter fighting equipment. And, Bruhasa ??? Never heard this one. Must be very local

[tangolima]

Hello,

METAR at 19.20:
06009KT 9999 FEW016 M04/M07 Q1023 R57/290174 R02/290176 NOSIG

Brushasa you can see Kinshasa
They compare BRU with Kinshasa .

Greetings,
Kristof

[jan_olieslagers]

You really don't want to be at this airport when it snows, did you know pilots call the airport Brushasa ?

If this refers to Kinshasa: I have every confidence snow and other winter conditions are handled at least 1000 times better at Brussels airport than in Kinshasa.

[jan_olieslagers]

I have experience enough to say that when it snows at Brussels Airport it runs into a complete disaster .

Complete disaster? Bah. A disaster is when a lot of people get killed. Please check your vocabulary. Your experience I don't even want to know.

[Atlantis]

I have experience enough to say that when it snows at Brussels Airport it runs into a complete disaster .

- not enough de-icing trucks,
- not enough trucks to remove the snow from taxiways and runways (have a look at Copenhagen, Hamburg, they have a team of 10 snowtrucks, runways are cleared 20 times faster than at Brussels)

You really don't want to be at this airport when it snows, did you know pilots call the airport Brushasa ?

Ha,ha, try harder I would say. Like member 744rules said, those airports you mention has very strong winters with a lot of snow. It's obvious that they would have several snow teams, I never expected something else.

Brussels Airport never closed due to snow, something we can't say about the third biggest airport of Germany - Dusseldorf with 18 million pax a year. They were closed today for several hours.

Brushasa? I think that you are the only one who called this airport this way and not the pilots.

Please, be serious!

[LeFreak]

well i am a pilot and myself and lots of colleagues call BRU airport brushasha .. last time i called it that way was this morning after landing from Bromma and enjoying the view of handlers at our beloved airport going haywire

[zteven]

I do agree that Brussels Airport should handle these things better.

Even this evening a lot of stands were white and icey, with no visibility
of the safety zones, jetway parking zone, ...

Salt, anyone?

Greetz



Steven

[BrightCedars]

Don't tell me about it, the family and I (2 adt, 1 chd, 1 inf) were on SN2824 from Budapest yesterday. Not only did we have to wait for 1h30 more in BUD for what was for us a connecting flight after a red-eye due to late arrival from BRU given the chaos, when we finally landed in BRU (after a delightful flight thanks to SN's onboard crew and product on A319 OO-SSP) they parked us really far (beyond the DHL jets or even on the other end of the runway) and bussed us to the terminal. Nobody enjoys a bus ride compared to a gate but under the circumstances I can understand, many heavies were still blocking both A/T and B.

The problem is the issue that was ongoing with delivering luggage, I don't really understand what went so wrong at the airport that made luggage delivery such an issue. Our flight was listed for belt 2, we got there and found out that there were much more flights listed than usual, most of them saying the luggage delivery is delayed due to weather conditions. Our flight immediately had a yellow suitcase icon saying that the delivery is delayed. After a while our flight disappeared from the screen and it was no longer listed on the main control screen either. A query at the SN baggage handling desk gave us a stubborn 'it will be at belt 2', without any information on the delay (length). We ended up waiting for 90 minutes for our luggage, not what you look forward to with an infant and a young child. I would expect better information when your luggage is delayed (e.g. how long is it expected to be delayed).

Snow happens in Belgium and around Brussels, it's not Kinshasa where I would understand they are not ready for a snow event.