Small paris CDG and IATA ticketing rules question

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eurojet
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Small paris CDG and IATA ticketing rules question

Post by eurojet »

Morning,

I have a small question for our airport and terminal experts and ticketing and IATA-rules experts.

In February, my lady and i are of for three weeks Argentina. We booked our flight over the web with Airstop.be. We live in Luxembourg and found the following flight for EUR 695.00 per person with the following routing;

LUX-Paris CDG with Air France AF4611 (N class), codeshare with Luxair, B735
Paris CDG-Sao Paulo with TAM JJ8097 (W class), A330
Sao Paulo - Buenos Aires with TAM JJ8640 (W class), codeshare with VARIG, MD11

Two questions: I know my way with my eyes closed on mayor hubs like AMS, FRA and LHR, I never went through CDG, though. We have one hour 15 minutes transfer time, we arrive at T2D and leave from T2A (on a Sunday evening): do you reckon this gives us enough time and can you walk from T2D to T2A, or do you need to take those CDG buses.

Secondly, I thought TAM was codesharing with AF, but this doesn't seem to be the case any longer. Which company is now "owner" or responsible for my entire traject. Imagine in a worst case scenario we are delayed by AF in Lux, and miss the flight to Sao Paulo, is TAM obliged to accommodate me in Paris or rebook me on another TAM or another company flight to Buenos Aires? What are my rights in case of delays, cancellations, missed connections and missed luggage? Or will it be a case of "sort it out yourself"? I only paid one price for the entire ticket, so no separate ticket Lux-CDG.

Thanks to you all experts for sharing your brains...

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Sabena_690
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Post by Sabena_690 »

Very interesting questions!

I don't know too much about IATA rules etc, but what I do know is that I would never have bought this ticket without informing myself about this connection.

AF do not codeshare with TAM between CDG and GRU. When I see your itinerary, I even wonder whether you will be able to check-in for your connecting flight at LUX. I hope for you that LG staff will be able to check you through to BUE, otherwise...

The people in the best place to help you are those from airstop. I would call them asap, and ask them about this itinerary.

Good luck!

eurojet
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Post by eurojet »

Thanks SN690, off course at Airstop they couldn't give me a concrete answer. They told me to give them a ring if we had problems at check-inn (off course, a sunday evening trying to call to a Belgian 070-number from abroad...). Anyway, Opodo and a range of other online dealers provide the same connecting, and at Findel, they are quite flexible, as long as you smile enough ...

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Flying-Belgian
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Post by Flying-Belgian »

Two questions, two answers:

1/ Transfer in CDG should be quick and easy as both of your terminals are n°2. Knowing CDG quite well, I suggest you to do it by walk. Waiting for a bus is only necessary if you have to connect through CDG1. A bus there is quite a hassle... But be aware that the queues are quite long at security check there. So don't waste your time !!!
2/ As far as air Airstop has sold you the tickets in one and only one file (=PNR) and not in split files you will do a through check-in in LUX with each outbound carrier being responsible for your checked-in luggages.

Hope this helps and enjoy your very nice trip with TAM and RG !!! ;)

FB.

eurojet
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Post by eurojet »

Thanks, FB. I am indeed looking forward to it: Three airlines I have never flown (TAM, Varig and Southern Winds for a range of internal flights), and a first MD-11 trip. Southern Winds are all 737-200. Prices for internal flights are ridiculously low, as long as you pay in Argentine pesos and book online.

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luchtzak
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Post by luchtzak »

Have a nice trip Eurojet, can we expect a 'flight experience'-report and some pictures of the airlinemeals after your holiday?

eurojet
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Post by eurojet »

I'll do my best, the problem is, however, that my wife and I usually get pretty pissed on long-haul flight (despite all the warnings that you need to drink loads of water and blablabla, but hey, I am on a holiday and paid for it). The wine card on TAM looks attractive and they have Brahma beer, which will be tested of course as new Interbrew member. The lay-over in GRU will entirely be dedicated in finding a place where they serve decent Caipeirinha. as always, we will regret it afterwards and utter the usual "I will never drink again on planes"-words ...

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Sabena_690
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Post by Sabena_690 »

Thanks for the info FB! Didn't know that for example LG staff can check you in for a domestic JJ flight if you are booked on the same PNR code. I was quite sure that luggage could be checked through, but not sure about passengers.

@eurojet: drinking too much on a flight is not only highly irresponsable, it's also incredibly stupid.

Frederic
Brussels Airlines - Flying Your Way

eurojet
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Post by eurojet »

Hé , Fred, don't be too responsible, we know our limits, don't worry. I sometimes even have the impression that certain companies nearly encourage it. We did two years ago LHR-MEX on BA, and half of the Y-calls pax congregated in the galley together with the crew to empty the bar, and the crew was most willing to satisfy everyone needs. Not a single pax complained or behaved badly, and there was a very laid-back and relaxed atmosphere. Same thing happened on MAD-HAV (ah, the endless streams of Bacardi-cola made me completely forget the lousy pitch on their B742). On Aer Lingus, before they became half-low cost, they always gave you without problems two 33cl cans of beer, since that was the closest to a pint (you just had to make the V-sign). I advise you to take a ride once Finnair or SAS, I have seen more than once half of the cabin half-wasted, and I never seen a "problem passenger". Most companies know very well how to handle this, most problems arise with companies from "nanny states" where everything is regulated and put in rules and small prints. Anyway, that's my two cents on having a beer or a wine on a plane

LX-LGX
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Post by LX-LGX »

Eurojet, if you don't have to work late on your departure day, I strongly suggest that you ask Airstop to amend your first flight. Seems you're now booked on these flights :
LUX-CDG 18h45-19h45 AF4611 735
CDG-GRU 21h00-05h50 JJ8097 330
GRU-EZE 08h15-10h00 JJ8640 MD-11

75 minutes in Paris is a very short connection: both LUX and CDG are Schengen, which means you will have to go through passport control at Paris. Boarding for JJ8097 will close some 30 minutes before ETD, which means that you actually have only 45 minutes between landing at CDG and presenting you at the gate for your flight to Sao Paolo. I do hope for you that everything will run smooth at Findel, that the computer will print all boarding passes, that there will be no delay, and that ATC Paris will not put you on hold.

Another problem is your luggage: you may run to get onto JJ8097, but what about your luggage ? Perhaps you can ask Buenos Aires airport already for a lost luggage form... :twisted:

I advise you to contact Airstop, and ask them to amend your LUX-CDG into:
LUX-CDG 15h10-16h10 AF4609 nice Fokker-50

If I would fly this route, I would then not ask for a through check-in for the luggage from LUX to EZE, but I would collect it in Paris, and do the check-in again there.

What's the date of your flight? There are also some GRU-EZE with 772!

eurojet
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Post by eurojet »

Flying out on a Sunday evening, 6th of feb, so shouldn't be the busiest of of periods at CDG, I think. Tickets already printed, though, so small change they will rebook at the same price (besides, I hate the F50, I nearly live on them, especially the KLM ones) If I miss the connection in CDG, does TAM has to rebook me on something else (there are a couple of Varig and AF flights leaving later the same evening), or do I have no rights at all and is it "see you later tomorrow"?

LX-LGX
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Post by LX-LGX »

If your LUX-CDG is too late, you will be treated as "involuntary rerouted". What will happen then, depends of the reason of the delay. If AF4611 is delayed because of an AF-fault, they will have to make sure you get there as soon as possible. If the problem is "overmacht" (circumstances beyond their control), they will try to get you there as soon as possible, depending on the goodwill of other carriers.

Late departure because of late arrival of the plane is their own fault. Late departure because of de-icing is weather related: not their fault. If they leave on time but are put on hold in Paris: not their fault. If they've missed their slot in LUX and are therefore put on hold by CDG ATC: their fault. Trust you see it won't be easy for you to proof what happened.

There are indeed almost no delays on a Sunday evening. But it's also February, and what about winter conditions? So please reconsider the Fokker-50: flying that one will not be as terrible as arriving in Buenos Aires without luggage...

(viva the Fokker-50).

eurojet
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Post by eurojet »

LX-LGX,

Luxair has only 3 flights on Sunday to CDG, so no flight on Sunday at 15.10 ... There is one early in the morning, one before noon and the late one ... Anyway, a bit of rushing and tension is part of the fun as well ...

Oh, and if you like F50's, have a ride with me on KLM's Cityhopper from Lux: KLM loves to repair their interiors with glue, sticky tape, stitches ... Each time they astonish me with their talents in airplane bricolage

SN30952
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IATA ticketing rules question

Post by SN30952 »

eurojet wrote:Morning,
Which company is now "owner" or responsible for my entire traject. Imagine in a worst case scenario we are delayed by AF in Lux, and miss the flight to Sao Paulo, is TAM obliged to accommodate me in Paris or rebook me on another TAM or another company flight to Buenos Aires? What are my rights in case of delays, cancellations, missed connections and missed luggage? Or will it be a case of "sort it out yourself"? I only paid one price for the entire ticket, so no separate ticket Lux-CDG.
Thanks to you all experts for sharing your brains...

Your routing looks probably as follows?
Luxembourg Paris, Charles de Gaulle AF 4611 18:45 19:45
Paris, Charles de Gaulle Sao Paulo, Guarulhos Intl sp JJ 8097 21:00 05:50
Sao Paulo, Guarulhos Intl sp Buenos Aires, Ministro Pistarini ba JJ 8640 08:15 10:00
Buenos Aires, Ministro Pistarini ba Sao Paulo, Guarulhos Intl sp JJ 8641 18:20 20:55
Sao Paulo, Guarulhos Intl sp Paris, Charles de Gaulle JJ 8096 22:55 14:25
Paris, Charles de Gaulle Luxembourg AF 4606 15:30 16:25

And you have a very good fare quote as the tickets are now sold at: 850,00 EUR + 55,11 EUR taks = 905,11 EUR (Economy) You will also see that flights by LH and KL are full, and that permits TAM to raise its fares....

You booked via: Airstop.be aka Sherpa NV - Airstop
This is a travel agent with belgian license A1529.
This is also a IATA-agent.
This is a member of the Vereniging voor Vlaamse Reisagenten and the Garantiefonds Reizen.
You have duly paid your tickets and are adults.
You are leaving from LUX.
What are your rights (you have also duties, but you didn't ask for that, did you?)

1- First of all when you will have your tickets, you will notice this is a contract. And the travel agent is the intermediate between you and all the other contractors. You have taken the initiative to contact him, and I must say you made a good choice. Because you have chosen a professional organisation. This body has been checked by the service of Commissaris generaal of Toerisme in Flanders. And by the appointed IATA member carrier for the investigation of that travel agent. Also the belgian ministries have a close control on its activities, as well as the EU administration, enforced by the local authorities. (You would have chosen a similar agent in Luxemburg you would have got the same assurance. btw a cancellation insurance is not a bad idea, as you never know what can happen to one of you)

2- The travel agent will issue the contract (ticket) using the plate of a IATA carrier. Making that carrier the main contractor. In this case there are not so many choices: AF/LG - JJ/RG.
The issuer should preferably use the airline designators of the tractors. The tractor is the airline who's aircraft will fly you. iow the aircraft that operates the flight, unless otherwise indicated in the rule governing the fare applied in your contract. This rule will then be an integral part of the contract. Every breach of that rule will be subject to sanction. I guess this will be TAM, as this fare seemed to be filed by TAM.. You are supposed to refer to the travel agent for any complaint concerning your contract.

3- By paying your contract, you in fact agreed with what is said higher and much more, probably unwillingly. But I would not worry too much in this case.
Airline:?: - Category - Designator - Numeric Code - ICAO Designator
TAM Linhas Aereas S.A. - I - JJ - 957 - TAM
Varig S.A. - I - RG - 042 - VRG
The non-Europeans are also IATA carriers.

4- You are leaving from an EU members state, so the EU regulations apply. Read my contribution about "Denied boarding" and 'cancellations" elsewhere in this forum.Then you will also have noticed that you will have protection by this EU regulation on your way back.

5- There are many chances you will be issued your boarding pass out of CDG in LUX. In that case you do not have to worry, you luggage is through-chechked and you walk calmly from your disembarkation gate to your embarkation gate, they will not leave without you.
But please do not over do your calm, although you are entitled to make a short visit the lavatories and even make a short phone call. You are not supposed to go to the hairdresser!.
If you are NOT issued your boarding pass in LUX, you go as quick as you can to the transfer desk in CDG for the boarding pass for your onward flight. Once you have these in your hand again you are safe, and proceed to the embarkation gate.

You have noticed that the transfer time on the return in CDG is shorter?
Have a nice trip.







:?: How do I know if my company is a Member of IATA?
* If your company is an airline, it may be a Member of IATA. IATA members are listed here.

eurojet
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Post by eurojet »

Thanks, Fons, loads of info I didn't know .. We always travel with airstop, and they never let us down, and always, without a single exception, I have found the lowest fares there, even when leaving out of LUX ... here in Lux travel agents don't even bother to go "deep" into their search. It is always "slikken of stikken". We used to have Connections here, but they closed down for one reason or another, so we are stuck with a whole bunch of Luxair - affiliated travel agents...

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Sabena_690
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Post by Sabena_690 »

Why didn't I think about this earlier: in July this year, I flew BRU-MXP-MAD on SNBA and AZ. The first leg was SN, the second one was AZ, and both tickets were booked under the AZ-code.

The SN Brussels check-in agent checked me in for both the BRU-MXP flight, and the AZ MXP-MAD flight (although this flight had nothing to do with SN). He even got the seating map on his screen and I was able to select my seat.

Your experience will be identical I think, as all your flights are under the same PNR code (as explained by flying belgian)...

Frederic

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Flying-Belgian
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Post by Flying-Belgian »

Attention !!

It all depends on the systems compatibility !! This means a luggage will always get a through check-in even with different airlines. BUT, you won't necessarily get a boarding pass ( and seating assignement ) if the check-in agent hasn't access to the other airline' system. In this case you will be asked to get your boarding pass at the gate (eg: if connecting through same terminal) or at a ticketing counter.

FB.

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airDD
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Post by airDD »

I flew GRU-CDG in 2001 on TAM; the service was good and the plane brand-new.

I had a connection from CDG-BRU on Sabena (my last SN flight).

Air France was the interline ticket-owner.

They couldnt check me in for the SN-leg in SP and was checked in at the gate in CDG to BRU by Air France.

I didnt check in any luggage but I had to gate-check my carry-on in CDG as the 737-500 was full. SN did lose my carryon in BRU put found it after 1 hour looking on the apron together with myself :).

airDD

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