69-year old passenger doctor David Dao dragged off overbooked United Express flight UA3411

[sean1982]

I totally sympathise with the customer here, however, surely united cannot be blamed for how police officials treated him? The airline only asked him to be removed after repeatedly asking him to leave. Surely somewhere in the terms and conditions it must state they have the right to do so. How the police removed him is not reallt the airline's fault? Therefore the police is more to blame here in my opinion.

That's a bit the reasoning of their CEO: We followed our little rules and the beating was done by the cop, don't blame us, but the unruly pax and the cops. I think it will cost him his bonus...

Maybe the rules are to be blamed as well:

- Maybe they should raise the compensation more? On a business route, who will accept 800$ of flight credit (so you to fly the jokers that just dumped you again!) for an almost 24h delay? I wouldn't! I can;t find any news about hotel and food taken care of... in not offered, you actually spend money to be bumped of a plane!
- Maybe they shouldn't overbook that much? In the EU (I have the impression), they overbook way less, thank-you EU!

Cheers,

Stij

Well, I still think that if you get told to get off, you get off? Sure, I would be pissed too and I would at the gate not settle for the 800 USD and hotel but want more out of it .... however, remaining seated untill the police needs to drag you of the flight, behave like a mad man and then complain that you got injured because of it .... dunno, i see both sides of the argument.

[Passenger]

Well, I still think that if you get told to get off, you get off? Sure, I would be pissed too and I would at the gate not settle for the 800 USD and hotel but want more out of it .... however, remaining seated untill the police needs to drag you of the flight, behave like a mad man and then complain that you got injured because of it .... dunno, i see both sides of the argument.

There is no legislation that obliges passengers to obey to all crew orders (example: "get off"). Passengers only have to obey when a crew demand is related to flight operations and/or to flight safety. The relevant legislation here is FAA’s Aviation Regulations FARS, 14 CFR § 125.328: “…No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crewmember in the performance of the crewmember’s duties aboard an aircraft being operated under this part…”.

As I have posted before: the get-off instruction here was not about a flight operation or a flight safety issue. It was because of a booking error by ground staff: the airline had sold too many seats, thus shortening four seats that were needed for another flight the next day. This was clearly explained to the passengers, so they knew it had nothing to do with the flight operation or the flight safety. Hence they were legally allowed to ignore the order "get off, our computer has randomly selected you".

If your "you get told to get off, you get off" is correct, passengers must also take down their pants when the crew orders them to do so, or give them 100 USD for a coffee when the crew orders them to do so.

It's all about basic consumer rights. A ticket is a legal contract that gives consumers the right to be flown to a destination. If the airline wants to breach that contract for a reason that is not foreseen in the general conditions that both parties had agreed, the airline has to negociate it with the passengers. And not enforce it.

(I'm not familiar with US Police rules and regulations, so I don't comment on that part. And I also don't know what United told the law enforcement about the reason for their intervention)

[Stij]

Well, I still think that if you get told to get off, you get off?

I believe in the next coming weeks / months, that won't be true anymore: People now know the airliners won't try it again in the next few weeks / months and will either raise the compensations so people get off and / or reduce the overbooking. Because if it happens again... Congress will investigate for sure.

At the end of the day: we're talking about human people vs. a profit and loss statement. If a company reserves the right to drag someone with a valid boarding pass that doesn't pose a risk to anybody manu militare from a plane, this airliner has its eye to much on the P&L..

Cheers,

Stij

[sean1982]

Well, I still think that if you get told to get off, you get off?

I believe in the next coming weeks / months, that won't be true anymore: People now know the airliners won't try it again in the next few weeks / months and will either raise the compensations so people get off and / or reduce the overbooking. Because if it happens again... Congress will investigate for sure.

At the end of the day: we're talking about human people vs. a profit and loss statement. If a company reserves the right to drag someone with a valid boarding pass that doesn't pose a risk to anybody manu militare from a plane, this airliner has its eye to much on the P&L..

Cheers,

Stij

passenger, I'm sure the terms and conditions would allow the airline to do what they did, otherwise they wouldn't have.
As for the police force ... I don't think the airline said: drag him off and hurt him as much as you can. He was asked politely to leave a few times if you keep resisting and behave like a fool, then you will get injured. By the time a police officer comes to your seat and asks you to leave the plane it has nothing to do with the airline anymore. Sure, he didnt have to follow a crew members instruction in this instance as it wasn't a safety instruction, however, to my knowledge, a police officers order is always legal, no matter the reason.

[Stij]

As for the police force ... I don't think the airline said: drag him off and hurt him as much as you can. He was asked politely to leave a few times if you keep resisting and behave like a fool, then you will get injured. By the time a police officer comes to your seat and asks you to leave the plane it has nothing to do with the airline anymore. Sure, he didnt have to follow a crew members instruction in this instance as it wasn't a safety instruction, however, to my knowledge, a police officers order is always legal, no matter the reason.

True, but the airline will think twice before they call the cops and the cops will think twice again before they intervene again...

Stij

[Passenger]

passenger, I'm sure the terms and conditions would allow the airline to do what they did, otherwise they wouldn't have.

No, they don't. See United Contract of Carriage, Rule 21 = Refusal of Transport:

Rule 21 only:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... aspx#sec21
Full text:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... riage.aspx

By the way: even Ryanair has such link to Flight Safety for crew instructions:
https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en/useful-in ... conditions
7.1.2.10 you fail to observe our instructions with respect to safety or security.

[Acid-drop]

- get off
- me no english

done.

[sean1982]

passenger, I'm sure the terms and conditions would allow the airline to do what they did, otherwise they wouldn't have.

No, they don't. See United Contract of Carriage, Rule 21 = Refusal of Transport:

Rule 21 only:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... aspx#sec21
Full text:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... riage.aspx

By the way: even Ryanair has such link to Flight Safety for crew instructions:
https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en/useful-in ... conditions
7.1.2.10 you fail to observe our instructions with respect to safety or security.

well yes, every airline has a "safety or security instructions" clause, but this was probably not applicable.
The denied boarding clause could be applicable ... under IATA "boarding" is only completed once the doors are closed ... as long as that is not the case you could be denied boarding, even when you're already in the seat.

[Bralo20]

Interview with Oscar Munoz on ABC News:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/united-ceo-osc ... ll_bsq_hed

One of his promises:

He won't allow a seated passenger to be forcibly removed in the future for such issues.

But the bigger part was his answer if the doctor was at fault at all, he's exact words: "No, he can't be. He was a paying passenger sitting on his seat on our aircraft. And no-one should be treated that way. Period."

Guess they'll probably push for a settlement, with saying in public that the passenger was not at fault at all he has given the passenger and his law firms ample munition to use in court, he admitted guilt.

[sn26567]

United will refund the fare to all flight 3411 passengers !

https://t.co/XKAPoELN9F

[Passenger]

Perhaps a bit too far off topic, but mr Munoz really has to bite the dust nowadays:

[Passenger]

The passenger has filed an urgent court case against United: he asks that the court orders that United must safeguard all relevant camera images, audio tapes, notes, memo's, ...

[sn26567]

Passengers on a United flight today (not a joke)

[quixoticguide]

United Airlines Lego now available.

[Bralo20]

The doctor suffered some pretty serious injuries:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/doctor-dragged ... al_fb_abcn

[pilot_gent]

There is no legislation that obliges passengers to obey to all crew orders (example: "get off"). Passengers only have to obey when a crew demand is related to flight operations and/or to flight safety. The relevant legislation here is FAA’s Aviation Regulations FARS, 14 CFR § 125.328: “…No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crewmember in the performance of the crewmember’s duties aboard an aircraft being operated under this part…”.

I'm pretty sure there is an icao standard that says the commander is the final authority who stays on board or not, whatever the reason. Your reference talks about what a person on board can not do, not what the commander can do.

I tend to agree with sean1982 here. If you are denied boarding or denied flight and you don't agree, you:
- discuss and explain why you think they are wrong;
- if that doesn't work, you take legal action afterwards.

Staying on board and even ignoring police orders is not the normal way of business

If you are in a restaurant and the owner doesn't want to serve you, are you going to wait till the police drags you out as well?

There is a big difference between not respecting consumer rights (which indeed might have not have respected here) and not following the law...

Ps: Just to be clear, I'm not agreeing with the way how the passenger was dragged off.

[Thomaaas]

Passengers on a United flight today (not a joke)

Isn't that the Condor logo on the emergency exit?

[eurus]

Sometimes, a shocking controversy like this one is both freakish and representative. Indeed, this incident is an extraordinary occurrence - overbookings. Airlines routinely sell tickets to more people than the plane can seat, counting on several people not to arrive. When there are not enough seats, airlines first try to offer rewards to customers willing to reschedule their plans, usually in the form of travel vouchers, gift cards or cash. The arrangement — which is usually negotiated before passengers board the plane. But involuntarily bumping passengers is rare.

Source: Quora

[quixoticguide]

Sometimes, a shocking controversy like this one is both freakish and representative. Indeed, this incident is an extraordinary occurrence - overbookings. Airlines routinely sell tickets to more people than the plane can seat, counting on several people not to arrive. When there are not enough seats, airlines first try to offer rewards to customers willing to reschedule their plans, usually in the form of travel vouchers, gift cards or cash. The arrangement — which is usually negotiated before passengers board the plane. But involuntarily bumping passengers is rare.

Source: Quora

Eurus, Welcome on Luchtzak.be!

[sn-remember]

I tend to agree with sean1982 here. If you are denied boarding or denied flight and you don't agree, you:
- discuss and explain why you think they are wrong;
- if that doesn't work, you take legal action afterwards.

Staying on board and even ignoring police orders is not the normal way of business

If you are in a restaurant and the owner doesn't want to serve you, are you going to wait till the police drags you out as well?

There is a big difference between not respecting consumer rights (which indeed might have not have respected here) and not following the law...

Ps: Just to be clear, I'm not agreeing with the way how the passenger was dragged off.

It is because the pax passively made obstruction that police was called in and the brutality they had to display made the headlines. Obviously , well-bahaved pax (like you or me would -most probably- have opposed no physical resistance. And received a minimal compensation compared to what the victim in this case may expect.
Also the fundamental questions (who is entitled to what and the legal aspect of things) would not have so dramatically been raised ...
Everybody is entitled to its own judgement of course, personally I would'nt try to resist even passively without witnesses and only in the first world and being sure to have the money to pay for a good lawyer ...
To each his own.