EgyptAir A300 Cargo ignores ATC instructions and causes near collision with Air France A320 above Ghent

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luchtzak
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Re: EgyptAir A300 Cargo ignores ATC instructions and causes near collision with Air France A320 above Ghent

Post by luchtzak »

With the career André has had at Sabena, I am sure that he knows more than "10 abreasts and a trip report".

There are other websites for near miss/near collision discussions ;-)

jan_olieslagers
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Re: EgyptAir A300 Cargo ignores ATC instructions and causes near collision with Air France A320 above Ghent

Post by jan_olieslagers »

"...Belgium's AAIU rated the occurrence a serious incident..."
Hradecky states that indeed. I can't help wondering about his sources: it would be very exceptional for the Belgian AAIU to publish whatever comment so very soon. Usually they only publish a final report after 1-2 years, a few times there will be a preliminary report but even that will take several weeks or even months.

(And for those who think that slow: I recently saw a report by the German equivalent BFU, published a full three years after the accident) http://www.bfu-web.de/DE/Publikationen/ ... cationFile

JAF737

Re: EgyptAir A300 Cargo ignores ATC instructions and causes near collision with Air France A320 above Ghent

Post by JAF737 »

luchtzak wrote: 17 Jan 2017, 14:35 With the career André has had at Sabena, I am sure that he knows more than "10 abreasts and a trip report".

There are other websites for near miss/near collision discussions ;-)
You also have many years in aviation and you had no clue about the fact that TCAS RA's are daily occurences.

Just to make sure... I am not saying that this is not a serious mistake, but leave the discussion open to others.

It's indeed up to you to decide what you want on your forum. There are luckily some people willing to learn things here (like Jan), but it's not because you have a special colour and a career outside a cockpit that you can start judging things you don't know at all.

Exactly the same story for the GA being normal or not normal...

Passenger
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Re: EgyptAir A300 Cargo ignores ATC instructions and causes near collision with Air France A320 above Ghent

Post by Passenger »

jan_olieslagers wrote: 17 Jan 2017, 14:37
Passenger wrote: 17 Jan 2017, 14:26...Belgium's AAIU rated the occurrence a serious incident..."
Hradecky states that indeed. I can't help wondering about his sources: it would be very exceptional for the Belgian AAIU to publish whatever comment so very soon. Usually they only publish a final report after 1-2 years, a few times there will be a preliminary report but even that will take several weeks or even months.
Dominique Dehaene, spokesman for Belgocontrol, was very clear and firm in his statement to VTM: ...De twee toestellen bevonden zich verticaal zo’n 100 meter van elkaar, horizontaal bedroeg de afstand 1,8 kilometer... Normaal moeten die afstanden veel groter zijn: verticaal (edited) moeten ze minstens 300 meter uit elkaars buurt blijven, horizontaal (edited) zo’n 10 kilometer... VTM concludes: Volgens Belgocontrol was de veiligheid van de luchtvaart op dat moment dus echt in gevaar.

May I also remind you that "Hradecky" (trust you mean Simon) was the first one to report about this serious incident, and that his report was later confirmed by Belgocontrol.

- - -

edited by Passenger: in the above aquote, VTM used "verticaal 100m" and "horizontaal 1,8 km" correct when referring to the actual distances. I normally never edit quotes, but I did it here: VTM made an error and switched the two words 'verticaal' and 'horizontaal' when referring to the required distances. The broadcast on tv was correct however, so I edited the above quote from VTM's website.
http://nieuws.vtm.be/binnenland/vliegtu ... ebeurde-er
Last edited by Passenger on 17 Jan 2017, 16:10, edited 1 time in total.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: EgyptAir A300 Cargo ignores ATC instructions and causes near collision with Air France A320 above Ghent

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Yes, I did mean Mr. Simon Hradecky, the driving force behind the avherald website.

And yes, there's nothing unexpected about Belgocontrol communicating facts as they know them. The citation from VTM raises some eyebrows :) : "vertical separation 10 km" ? But that must be due to the "professionalism" of the media, as illustrated a thousand times over; I have every confidence Belgocontrol gave the correct information.

But there is a clear distinction between Belgocontrol and the AAIU - perhaps Mr. Hradecky got things mixed up? I stand by my doubts about any statement from the AAIB being available so soon.

(AAIB stands for Aviation Accidents Investigation Board, it is one service of the "Ministry" / FOD / SPF of Mobility)

convair
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Re: EgyptAir A300 Cargo ignores ATC instructions and causes near collision with Air France A320 above Ghent

Post by convair »

JAF737 wrote: 17 Jan 2017, 14:10
sn26567 wrote: 16 Jan 2017, 23:00 Could we leave this discussion there? Whatever the expression used, this was a serious incident.
Right words are important. Definitely in aviation.
I agree with that.
jan_olieslagers wrote:That could have been worded more politely,
And I agree with that too.
JAF737 wrote:
luchtzak wrote: 17 Jan 2017, 14:35 With the career André has had at Sabena, I am sure that he knows more than "10 abreasts and a trip report".

There are other websites for near miss/near collision discussions ;-)
.. I am not saying that this is not a serious mistake, but leave the discussion open to others.
I am definitely not an expert. But I don't mind if the "experts" continue their discussion on this forum (I can eventually learn something interesting...) as long as the "non-experts" are allowed to express themselves too and to call it a "serious incident" if they want to.
Until today, I thought this forum was open to everyone and that you didn't need to be vetted by a jury of "experts" before participating. Was I wrong?

Passenger
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Re: EgyptAir A300 Cargo ignores ATC instructions and causes near collision with Air France A320 above Ghent

Post by Passenger »

jan_olieslagers wrote: 17 Jan 2017, 15:17The citation from VTM raises some eyebrows: "vertical separation 10 km" ? But that must be due to the "professionalism" of the media, as illustrated a thousand times over; I have every confidence Belgocontrol gave the correct information.
Indeed, it's obvious they mixed up the two words 'vertical' and 'horizontal' in their written report from the tv broadcast. However, the graphics shown during the broadcast interview with Dominique Dehaene (Belgocontrol) was correct.
http://nieuws.vtm.be/binnenland/vliegtu ... ebeurde-er

And because it was VTM, do we also have to doubt what Dominique Dehaene (Belgocontrol) said at the end of that interview? Quote: "Wel, de veiligheid van het luchtverkeer is alleszins in het gedrang geweest ondanks de instructies van Belgocontrol". End of quote.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: EgyptAir A300 Cargo ignores ATC instructions and causes near collision with Air France A320 above Ghent

Post by jan_olieslagers »

do we also have to doubt what Dominique Dehaene (Belgocontrol) said at the end of that interview? Quote: "Wel, de veiligheid van het luchtverkeer is alleszins in het gedrang geweest ondanks de instructies van Belgocontrol"
I don't think so. When or where or by whom was that ever stated?

Passenger
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Re: EgyptAir A300 Cargo ignores ATC instructions and causes near collision with Air France A320 above Ghent

Post by Passenger »

jan_olieslagers wrote: 17 Jan 2017, 16:30 I don't think so. When or where or by whom was that ever stated?
Read my post please. I've given the link to the VTM News broadcast with the interview with Dominique Dehaene, spokesman Belgocontrol. Repeat: this is what Dominique Dehaene said. Word by word, unedited quote from Dominique Dehaene from Belgocontrol in that VTM broadcast: "Wel, de veiligheid van het luchtverkeer is alleszins in het gedrang geweest ondanks de instructies van Belgocontrol". Even low-qualified André (sn26567) can understand what Dominique Dehaene from Belgocontrol says, me thinks.

Still not convinced Jan? Then force yourself to listen to / look at the full VTM News 13h on Saturday 14 January 2017:
http://nieuws.vtm.be/video/?f%5B0%5D=sm ... aid=222074
You won't have to search very long for the story about the near collision: it's the headline news.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: EgyptAir A300 Cargo ignores ATC instructions and causes near collision with Air France A320 above Ghent

Post by jan_olieslagers »

:?: But of what do you want me to be convinced? Did I ever question the fact that security has been under a serious threat?

Nevihta
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Re: EgyptAir A300 Cargo ignores ATC instructions and causes near collision with Air France A320 above Ghent

Post by Nevihta »

For information, separations used by TCAS to trigger an alert are not the same that ATC applies, (if I remember well, because TCAS works in terms of seconds of separation, not distance).



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luchtzak
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Re: EgyptAir A300 Cargo ignores ATC instructions and causes near collision with Air France A320 above Ghent

Post by luchtzak »

In an interim report the Belgium Federal Public Service of Mobility and Transport (or Air Accident Investigation Unit) wrote that the Egyptair pilots misinterpreted the TCAS RA instructions.

https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/ ... tructions/

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