Brussels region noise regulation

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teach
Posts: 740
Joined: 23 Feb 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by teach »

Poiu wrote: 13 May 2017, 18:57
teach wrote: 13 May 2017, 16:16
The number of heavies is largely irrelevant in the way LHR operates: thy bundle heavies together for both take-offs and landings, meaning they only lose capacity when a heavy is followed by a smaller plane. This isn't realy somehing that's up for debate you know: mixed ops means larger capacity.
I was not talking about wake turbulence, but about runway occupancy time!
A heavy 747 rolls for 60 seconds a 737 for 40, the number of heavies does have a serious impact on capacity.
And still, mixed ops means higher capacity.

Hue

Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Hue »

teach wrote: 14 May 2017, 10:01 And still, mixed ops means higher capacity.
You can't compare single rwy throughput with mixed ops on parallel runways.

With mixed ops you have arrivals on 25L & R. These have to be staggered, except when in Simultaneous Independent Arrivals mode (only for ILS approach, RNP approach (recent addition, usage will increase) can't benefit from Simindep at EBBR). Staggered arrivals are difficult in combination with departures that need different gaps (Heavy vs Medium), wake turbulence separations, ...

And then we haven't started discussing the main concern for mixed ops on parallel runways, safety. It's safer to benefit from segregated ops if you have 2 parallel runways available.

Bottom line : if mixed ops on parallel runways was a safer option offering better capacity at EBBR, the airport would have invested in the extra taxiway a long time ago. The reason it is on the table now is imo to become less dependent of the Brussels Noise regulations. From an operational view, I want to highlight the trade-off.

teach
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Joined: 23 Feb 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by teach »

Hue wrote: 15 May 2017, 12:20
teach wrote: 14 May 2017, 10:01 And still, mixed ops means higher capacity.
You can't compare single rwy throughput with mixed ops on parallel runways.

With mixed ops you have arrivals on 25L & R. These have to be staggered, except when in Simultaneous Independent Arrivals mode (only for ILS approach, RNP approach (recent addition, usage will increase) can't benefit from Simindep at EBBR). Staggered arrivals are difficult in combination with departures that need different gaps (Heavy vs Medium), wake turbulence separations, ...

And then we haven't started discussing the main concern for mixed ops on parallel runways, safety. It's safer to benefit from segregated ops if you have 2 parallel runways available.

Bottom line : if mixed ops on parallel runways was a safer option offering better capacity at EBBR, the airport would have invested in the extra taxiway a long time ago. The reason it is on the table now is imo to become less dependent of the Brussels Noise regulations. From an operational view, I want to highlight the trade-off.
Did you read the link I posted about LHR? 45.000 extra movements per year for mixed ops. Pretty sure they've done the math. The main reason BRU hasn't done it yet is because they don't need the extra capacity. First time the idea to lengthen 25L and build a parallel taxiway came up was in the late 90s, as a way to keep up with (at the time) the expected growth in the number of flights. Of course, that never materialised after SN's demise, so the plan was put on ice, until now. Now of course it's mainly because of the noise regulations. The added capacity is just a bonus.

pijaleu
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by pijaleu »

Will Brussels Gov have the guts to send a fine to Donald Trump as well, cause I presume AirForce One will also exceed the noise restrictions?

:lol: :mrgreen: :evil:

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by jan_olieslagers »

! ! ! ! ! ! !

But no, they won't: it wouldn't hurt the Flemish.

ZavCity
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Joined: 11 Nov 2014, 17:58

Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by ZavCity »

Hallo
this could be tricky..If they DO NOT give a ticket to this very noisy old 742, all other penalties could be cancelled via good lawyers (discrimination!!)
gtz
paul

Poiu
Posts: 897
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Poiu »

ZavCity wrote: 17 May 2017, 07:58 Hallo
this could be tricky..If they DO NOT give a ticket to this very noisy old 742, all other penalties could be cancelled via good lawyers (discrimination!!)
gtz
paul
Air Force One won't use 25R for take-off, so no problem.

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Passenger »

ZavCity wrote: 17 May 2017, 07:58 this could be tricky..If they DO NOT give a ticket to this very noisy old 742, all other penalties could be cancelled via good lawyers (discrimination!!)
All other fines will also be waived, when brought to court. The Brussels legislation surely must have a time schedule in which the administration has to notify airlines that they have been caught. And Brussels is exceeding that period of time. Don't know what the time schedule is for this environment legislation, but for traffic violations, it's two weeks notice. When you have been caught speeding, the Police or Justice must send you their pv within two weeks.

Secondly, offenses and fines are submit to the general principle of reasonable period of time (redelijke termijn / date limite raisonable). A court will dismiss fines, when the offender has only been notified in January 2019 for an offence of May 2017.

BRU
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Joined: 06 Jan 2013, 15:35

Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by BRU »

This aircraft is even not allowed at Brussels Airport if it was a commercial operation. It is too noise to meet the QC standards as set by the national governement. This is the reason why ET for example moved to LGG, as they where using old B747-200F at that time. But the law foresees an exemption for governement flights: they can operate any type of aircraft any time of the day.

Probably Brussels has also something accordingly in their law to avoid this situation?

Jetter
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Joined: 06 Nov 2015, 21:07

Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Jetter »

ZavCity wrote: 17 May 2017, 07:58 Hallo
this could be tricky..If they DO NOT give a ticket to this very noisy old 742, all other penalties could be cancelled via good lawyers (discrimination!!)
gtz
paul
Even parking fines for a car used by a foreign official can't be enforced, I suppose diplomatic immunity applies to aircraft fines as well :)

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Passenger »

Didier Gosuin (DéFI), Brussels minister for Economy and Employment, denies the figures given by Brussels Airport about employment at BRU ("20.000 direct jobs, 3.000 of them for people living in Brussels").

Gosuin had asked a department of the University Leuven/Louvain to calculate it. "Depending on the criteria", they calculate 13% Brussels-people on 10.663 fulltime jobs, or 23% on 11.672.

Gosuin now wants that a colloquium will calculate the exact figures.

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnenland ... news.dhtml

The study from University Leuven/Louvain mentions fulltime jobs (VTE / ETP), whilst Brussels Airport probably has calculated the jobs on a per person basis. But even then: more important for a Brussels minister of employment should be the indirect jobs that a closeby airport generates: hotels, restaurants, congresses, taxis, ...

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speedbird1
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by speedbird1 »

Jetter wrote: 17 May 2017, 11:15
ZavCity wrote: 17 May 2017, 07:58 Hallo
this could be tricky..If they DO NOT give a ticket to this very noisy old 742, all other penalties could be cancelled via good lawyers (discrimination!!)
gtz
paul
Even parking fines for a car used by a foreign official can't be enforced, I suppose diplomatic immunity applies to aircraft fines as well :)
The flight will be state or military so is exempt from noise regulation.
Rgds,
Speedy

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Passenger »

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/39286/Geluidsb ... port.dhtml

(I will post a translation later today)

Passenger
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Passenger »

Raad van State / Conseil d'Etat, press release 23/05/2017:

Beroepen tegen 'plan Wathelet' verworpen. Bij twee arresten nr. 238.283 en nr. 238.284 van 22 mei 2017 heeft de Raad van State de beroepen verworpen tegen de instructies inzake de spreiding van de vluchten vertrekkende van de luchthaven Brussel-Nationaal, gekend onder de naam "plan Wathelet".

Rejet des recours contre le 'plan Wathelet'. Par deux arrêts n° 238.283 et n° 238.284 du 22 mai 2017, le Conseil d’État a rejeté les recours formés contre les instructions relatives à la dispersion des vols au départ de l’aéroport de Bruxelles-National, connues sous le nom de "plan Wathelet".

238283 (in French only):
http://www.raadvst-consetat.be/arr.php?nr=238283
238284 (in French only):
http://www.raadvst-consetat.be/arr.php?nr=238284

Charlie Roy
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Charlie Roy »

http://irishaviationresearchinstitute.b ... -with.html

Ryanair has taken delivery of its first 737-800 SFP (adapted for short runways).
Meaning, compared to the other 737-800's in Ryanair's fleet, it can land or shorter runways and it can take off on shorter runways!

I wonder will Ryanair use these SFP's at Brussels in order to minimize the risk of breaking noise thresholds in the morning by being airborne and higher a lot quicker.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by sn26567 »

For the first time ever, I have suffered from aircraft noise in Brussels and realised what Brussels people sometimes endure. I was at the opera which is temporarily hosted in a large tent at Thurn & Tassis (Tour & Taxis). During the representation of Verdi' s Aida (which is happening in Egypt during the pharaohs era) we were overflown by two or three dozens of aircraft making a very loud anachronic sound, completely out of phase with what was shown on stage.

The canal route is indeed a very loud nuisance.
André
ex Sabena #26567

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Hm. With all my sympathy - and today's weather quite suited a subtropical atmosphere! : how wise is it to stage opera at a place known to suffer from aircraft noise? But frankly, "two or three dozens" seems a lot, I used to work nearby and never saw/heard more than 10 planes in a whole day on the canal route, even on weekdays.

A bit off topic: I seem to hear "De Munt / La Monnaie" will soon be back to normal operations. But I do envy you for the Aida performance!

gumblebee
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by gumblebee »

jan_olieslagers wrote: 28 May 2017, 19:29 "two or three dozens" seems a lot, I used to work nearby and never saw/heard more than 10 planes in a whole day on the canal route, even on weekdays.
The canal route is used a lot more during weekends. I also have the impression that it's used a lot by 747's.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by jan_olieslagers »

I share your impression about the 747's. And it may well be the route is used more intensively during weekends, I have no idea. Even so, three dozen aircraft during the three hours or so of an opera performance seems quite quite a lot. One plane every five minutes? But all this is only "talk in the margin", of course.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by sn26567 »

I counted some 50 departures from BRU during the 3 hours of the opera. Admittedly they didn't all follow the canal route but I'm sure to have been disturbed by 2 dozens of them. I found it more of a problem than when I lived in Neder-over-Heembeek and had to close the windows every night for the wave of DHL flights.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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